[TERA Console] We will be entering into maintenance on 04/01 at 8:00 AM PDT, and have an expected downtime of 1 hour. For details, please visit the following thread: http://bit.ly/teraconsolemaintenance

[TERA PC] We will be entering into maintenance on 04/01 at 9:00 AM PDT, and have an expected downtime of 1 hour. For details, please visit the following thread: http://bit.ly/terapcmaintenance

Stopping the Potential Exodus

123457»

Comments

  • ChristinChristin ✭✭✭✭
    RandomElin wrote: »
    Christin wrote: »
    RandomElin wrote: »
    RandomElin wrote: »
    dmaxcustom wrote: »
    EME does want to answer because it is not in their hands. BHS included this on the game, not them. Also, why answering while the community behaves like some sort of entitled snowflake brats that insult left and right?
    They did screwed up by not telling this before hand. However, why would they? The result would have not changed at all, specially considering the community would have been insufferable either way. And by the way, I have been lurking here since before Tera Rising, and guess what, the community has behaved the same way year after year, there is a point where you will not care anymore about such disrespectful customers.

    But oh well. Who cares right?

    I disagree strongly with you. If it didn't appear like they were trying to sneak it in, the pre-xigncode fallout would have likely been avoided for the most part. (Of course, it appears that the post-xigncode fallout dwarfs the pre-xigncode fallout.) And no, the whole "BHS included this" notion is likely outright wrong. As far as I can tell, xigncode is typically done at the publisher level. It is possible that EME was pressured by Bluehole, though.

    The lesson from this seems to be that it is a bad idea to add something like xigncode to a game after a player base has already been formed. Unless, of course, the player base is overwhelmingly demanding it to be added. The reason for this is simple. The point of xigncode is not actually to catch cheaters. Instead, it is to improve the game experience for the users. The problem is that this is a trade off. Xigncode is going to hurt performance and even prevent some from even being able to play the game. Include it at the start of a game and the player base will largely be composed of players ok with that trade off. Try to add it in later and the point of xigncode becomes a complete failure since many in the player base will not be ok with that trade off (particularly those who suddenly find that the game is unplayable).
    Xign was absolutely added by BHS. Whether it's at eme's prompting or not is another question, but it modified the tera.exe, which means bhs was definitely involved. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised at this point if we got a "they accidentally included an anti-cheat program which was not meant to be deployed in our region...." kind of thing.. but maybe that's just optimism.

    Just want to point out that "modified the tera.exe" doesn't necessarily mean a source code level change. Some code obfuscators read in a compiled executable to create an obfuscated executable for instance. Does anyone here know how xigncode is actually added to an executable?

    I really think you should watch the latest stream. You seem to think Sean actually cares about your concerns, so maybe watch that stream and see for yourself.

    There hasn't been any fallout. For every one of us that leaves, there are 10 kids eager to replace us. This hasn't really impacted EME in any way. So there are three or four threads that they can't comment on, that's about it. The influx of new players during this time of year, will kill any hope you have of getting EME's attention. To put it bluntly my dear, they won't notice we're gone.

    You're logic doesn't even make sense. If there were ten kids eager to replace us, they would have just joined TERA NA. With such demand the player base would have been exploding. That is clearly not the case. I mean its not like EME is blocking people from joining until someone leaves. This isn't a scenario where there is a reserve pool of new players that automatically join when someone leaves.

    As for the fallout, it is undeniable at this point that there is fallout from the xigncode debacle. Thanks to xigncode, some people can't even launch the game or have performance so bad they might as well not be able to launch the game. Do you really think those people or going to play legitimately. No. Part of the fallout is that those people are going to either start "cheating" to play the game, or are going to leave TERA NA. "Cheaters" are also disincentivized to spend actual money on TERA NA since they could be banned for cheating. Based on the reports I've seen, the fallout has already been enough to cause a drop off of the player base at a time when new content was released. Normally, new content means a player base spike. So basically, what it appears xigncode gave us is a retracting player base that is more inclined to cheat and less inclined to spend money.

    What a load. So you think a few posts in the forum means oodles of players have left? Any idea what time of year this is? I clearly said "for every one of us that leaves," so you obviously think hundreds have left. Sorry to break it to you, but your logic doesn't make much sense. Please show proof that xigncode has given a "retracting player base" and "a drop off of the player base". Where are you getting the proof to back that up?

    You're right, I am sure this will financially cripple EME, and they will be on hands and knees begging us to come back. LOL
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    > @ElinUsagi said:
    > RandomElin wrote: »
    >
    > Normally, new content means a player base spike. So basically, what it appears xigncode gave us is a retracting player base that is more inclined to cheat and less inclined to spend money.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I agree with this.

    Same, but you know what? Even if the cheating playerbase wanted to buy stuff they couldn't SINCE THE CASHSHOP IS EMPTY :joy: :joy:

    @Christin the lack of players is very noticeable,I guess you don't know since you're not playing. I'm not getting queues for kd/tr/lk. 412s also sometimes don't pop fast. Lfg deader than even. Even the lfg discord. Usually I'd wake up to 15+ pings during events but this weekend? Maybe 2-3. It's quiet as hell. A lot of players are laying low or just quit for the time being. And nah, kids won't flock during the summer break, or at least it won't be enough to patch this hole.
  • Christin wrote: »
    RandomElin wrote: »
    Christin wrote: »
    RandomElin wrote: »
    RandomElin wrote: »
    dmaxcustom wrote: »
    EME does want to answer because it is not in their hands. BHS included this on the game, not them. Also, why answering while the community behaves like some sort of entitled snowflake brats that insult left and right?
    They did screwed up by not telling this before hand. However, why would they? The result would have not changed at all, specially considering the community would have been insufferable either way. And by the way, I have been lurking here since before Tera Rising, and guess what, the community has behaved the same way year after year, there is a point where you will not care anymore about such disrespectful customers.

    But oh well. Who cares right?

    I disagree strongly with you. If it didn't appear like they were trying to sneak it in, the pre-xigncode fallout would have likely been avoided for the most part. (Of course, it appears that the post-xigncode fallout dwarfs the pre-xigncode fallout.) And no, the whole "BHS included this" notion is likely outright wrong. As far as I can tell, xigncode is typically done at the publisher level. It is possible that EME was pressured by Bluehole, though.

    The lesson from this seems to be that it is a bad idea to add something like xigncode to a game after a player base has already been formed. Unless, of course, the player base is overwhelmingly demanding it to be added. The reason for this is simple. The point of xigncode is not actually to catch cheaters. Instead, it is to improve the game experience for the users. The problem is that this is a trade off. Xigncode is going to hurt performance and even prevent some from even being able to play the game. Include it at the start of a game and the player base will largely be composed of players ok with that trade off. Try to add it in later and the point of xigncode becomes a complete failure since many in the player base will not be ok with that trade off (particularly those who suddenly find that the game is unplayable).
    Xign was absolutely added by BHS. Whether it's at eme's prompting or not is another question, but it modified the tera.exe, which means bhs was definitely involved. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised at this point if we got a "they accidentally included an anti-cheat program which was not meant to be deployed in our region...." kind of thing.. but maybe that's just optimism.

    Just want to point out that "modified the tera.exe" doesn't necessarily mean a source code level change. Some code obfuscators read in a compiled executable to create an obfuscated executable for instance. Does anyone here know how xigncode is actually added to an executable?

    I really think you should watch the latest stream. You seem to think Sean actually cares about your concerns, so maybe watch that stream and see for yourself.

    There hasn't been any fallout. For every one of us that leaves, there are 10 kids eager to replace us. This hasn't really impacted EME in any way. So there are three or four threads that they can't comment on, that's about it. The influx of new players during this time of year, will kill any hope you have of getting EME's attention. To put it bluntly my dear, they won't notice we're gone.

    You're logic doesn't even make sense. If there were ten kids eager to replace us, they would have just joined TERA NA. With such demand the player base would have been exploding. That is clearly not the case. I mean its not like EME is blocking people from joining until someone leaves. This isn't a scenario where there is a reserve pool of new players that automatically join when someone leaves.

    As for the fallout, it is undeniable at this point that there is fallout from the xigncode debacle. Thanks to xigncode, some people can't even launch the game or have performance so bad they might as well not be able to launch the game. Do you really think those people or going to play legitimately. No. Part of the fallout is that those people are going to either start "cheating" to play the game, or are going to leave TERA NA. "Cheaters" are also disincentivized to spend actual money on TERA NA since they could be banned for cheating. Based on the reports I've seen, the fallout has already been enough to cause a drop off of the player base at a time when new content was released. Normally, new content means a player base spike. So basically, what it appears xigncode gave us is a retracting player base that is more inclined to cheat and less inclined to spend money.

    What a load. So you think a few posts in the forum means oodles of players have left? Any idea what time of year this is? I clearly said "for every one of us that leaves," so you obviously think hundreds have left. Sorry to break it to you, but your logic doesn't make much sense. Please show proof that xigncode has given a "retracting player base" and "a drop off of the player base". Where are you getting the proof to back that up?

    You're right, I am sure this will financially cripple EME, and they will be on hands and knees begging us to come back. LOL

    There have both been reports of RG queues being dead and Velika being near a ghost town. Those situations may have recovered at least somewhat by now. I can't actually launch the client because of xigncode, so I can't see for myself. However, based upon the reports I have seen, the overall opinion is that there has been a drop off in the player base. This is the opposite of what should have happened considering the release of the new content. That basically shows that the drop in the player base was more than enough to erase what should have been a player spike. I've even seen at least one case of some player from one of the "more populated" servers looking to move to another server due to a lack of players. Considering this, you claiming that more players will just magically materialize makes no sense. If what you claim was guaranteed, there would have been no drop. Please note, I not claiming that TERA NA will or will not be able to survive if xigncode stays in place. It does appear that the addition of xigncode was not healthy for the TERA NA player base, though. That is not good for EME. Doesn't necessarily mean that EME will remove xigncode, though.
  • http://steamcharts.com/app/323370
    this is only the charts for steam players.
    It looks as if there is a drop of 10 or 20 percent maybe.

    I don't know what the situation is like in game...
  • There's always a drop off in activity after events, because players experience burnout for taking advantage of them.

    To say that there is a drop off because of the posts of 3-5 people in a forum that a vast majority of players don't use is laughably naive
  • There's always a drop off in activity after events, because players experience burnout for taking advantage of them.

    To say that there is a drop off because of the posts of 3-5 people in a forum that a vast majority of players don't use is laughably naive

    There are those of use who can't even get in game with TERA NA due to the xigncode addition. Plus, I don't see how "a vast majority of players don't use" somehow invalidates the reports on the forum of the in-game state. This isn't the case of just a few forum goers saying they are leaving. Based upon the reports, there has been a drop off of players in game. That drop off is just one part of the exodus. Another part is the transition of many players to cheating just to play the game. Could the player base recover? Maybe. Of course, removing xigncode wouldn't necessarily mean that the player base would instantly recover either.

    I would also like to remind people that at the time of the xigncode addition, there would have normally been a player base spike due to new content.
    http://steamcharts.com/app/323370
    this is only the charts for steam players.
    It looks as if there is a drop of 10 or 20 percent maybe.

    I don't know what the situation is like in game...

    That is interesting. The problem with the steam charts, though, is it doesn't distinguish between just running the launcher and actually being in game. That makes its usefulness somewhat limited. Also, doesn't provide any information as to the increase in cheaters.
  • RandomElin wrote: »
    I would also like to remind people that at the time of the xigncode addition, there would have normally been a player base spike due to new content.

    Not all updates cause player spikes. If it was a new class or some major addition, then sure, but this is a minor update on what is now a monthly cycle, coming right off a month of events, at the beginning of summer break. I don't think we have any conclusive data at all to support that things would have been any different regardless of this software.

    As I mentioned before too, BHS implemented the same software on PUBG last year, which has tens of millions of players, so whatever drama/fallout/issues/etc. we have here is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what they've already gone through there. EME handled the customer support for PUBG during that transition. So that's why I suspect this fatalistic "major fallout" or "potential exodus" argument isn't going to get much traction with the staff.

    I'm not trying to say that there aren't issues with the way this all happened or suggesting that the software is useful or fit for purpose, as has already been well-discussed ad nauseum.
  • RandomElin wrote: »
    I would also like to remind people that at the time of the xigncode addition, there would have normally been a player base spike due to new content.

    Not all updates cause player spikes. If it was a new class or some major addition, then sure, but this is a minor update on what is now a monthly cycle, coming right off a month of events, at the beginning of summer break. I don't think we have any conclusive data at all to support that things would have been any different regardless of this software.

    As I mentioned before too, BHS implemented the same software on PUBG last year, which has tens of millions of players, so whatever drama/fallout/issues/etc. we have here is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what they've already gone through there. EME handled the customer support for PUBG during that transition. So that's why I suspect this fatalistic "major fallout" or "potential exodus" argument isn't going to get much traction with the staff.

    I'm not trying to say that there aren't issues with the way this all happened or suggesting that the software is useful or fit for purpose, as has already been well-discussed ad nauseum.

    My understanding is that there was new gear released alongside xigncode. I believe that's the kind of thing that typically does spike the player base. Regardless, though, the reports are that there has been a noticeable drop in players in game. We are not just talking about a few players leaving. For the drop to be noticeable in game, it would have to be a significant drop. Hate to break this to you, but that potential exodus isn't so potential anymore. Don't know if the exodus is ongoing or not, though.

    Let me go over some aspects of the exodus from most direct to most indirect.

    1. Some players have had xigncode destroy the game experience to them. Examples of this would be players that can no longer run the client and players who find performance degraded to such a degree that they might as well not run the client. Not much choice for these players other than leaving or start cheating to get around xigncode. The reports of a noticeable drop of players in game suggests that a significant amount of players left.

    2. Players who like multiplayer content have had their game experience diminished. This is due to the reduction of the player base. If the game experience for some of these players is diminished enough, they may find themselves in the "why even play" category. If that happens, they're gone and the player base will dwindle further. This has the potential to cause a feedback loop. If that happens, TERA NA is basically dead.

    3. EME has less TERA NA players to get money from. This is due to the reduced player base and the increase in cheaters within the player base. Cheaters are disincentivized from spending money due to the risk of them getting banned for cheating. Reduced money for EME from TERA NA would likely mean EME putting reduced resources into TERA NA. That would reduced the game experience for all players. If the game experience is diminished enough for some players, they may find themselves in the "why even play" category. If that happens, they're gone and the player base will dwindle further. That has the potential to cause a feedback loop. If that happens, TERA NA is basically dead.

    I am not saying that the exodus is going to kill TERA NA. There is a possibility it could, though. Particularly if it triggers a feedback loop of more and more players leaving.
  • edited June 2018
    RandomElin wrote: »
    My understanding is that there was new gear released alongside xigncode. I believe that's the kind of thing that typically does spike the player base.
    Not really anymore, because it's just appended to the end of the existing gear process. It's not like the old days where new gear meant a major change. This is just another "stretch goal" for people who are already at the top, and a new high-end dungeon to go with it. In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor update.
    RandomElin wrote: »
    Regardless, though, the reports are that there has been a noticeable drop in players in game. We are not just talking about a few players leaving. For the drop to be noticeable in game, it would have to be a significant drop. Hate to break this to you, but that potential exodus isn't so potential anymore. Don't know if the exodus is ongoing or not, though.
    Again, the problem is that -- even if this anecdotal evidence were supported by real data -- correlation isn't causation. People's perception of population is influenced by a lot of factors, again not least of which is that we just got off a month of events that made the world seem more populated, and now things are "back to normal."
    RandomElin wrote: »
    I am not saying that the exodus is going to kill TERA NA. There is a possibility it could, though.
    TERA isn't so very special that this software, implemented in plenty of other games and so easily bypassable, is going to kill it. If anything kills it, it'll be BHS's inability to push compelling updates that convince people to come back and keep playing over the long term. Keeping or removing this ineffective software is the least of the problems.
  • RandomElin wrote: »
    My understanding is that there was new gear released alongside xigncode. I believe that's the kind of thing that typically does spike the player base.
    Not really anymore, because it's just appended to the end of the existing gear process. It's not like the old days where new gear meant a major change. This is just another "stretch goal" for people who are already at the top, and a new high-end dungeon to go with it. In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor update.
    RandomElin wrote: »
    Regardless, though, the reports are that there has been a noticeable drop in players in game. We are not just talking about a few players leaving. For the drop to be noticeable in game, it would have to be a significant drop. Hate to break this to you, but that potential exodus isn't so potential anymore. Don't know if the exodus is ongoing or not, though.
    Again, the problem is that -- even if this anecdotal evidence were supported by real data -- correlation isn't causation. People's perception of population is influenced by a lot of factors, again not least of which is that we just got off a month of events that made the world seem more populated, and now things are "back to normal."
    RandomElin wrote: »
    I am not saying that the exodus is going to kill TERA NA. There is a possibility it could, though.
    TERA isn't so very special that this software, implemented in plenty of other games and so easily bypassable, is going to kill it. If anything kills it, it'll be BHS's inability to push compelling updates that convince people to come back and keep playing over the long term. Keeping or removing this ineffective software is the least of the problems.

    TERA isn't some special software in this case. Adding something like xigncode to a game with an already formed player base is going to harm that player base. This is because xigncode will diminish game performance (or worse) for a good deal of the player base. Xigncode really needs a self selected player base or a player base that is overwhelmingly asking for it so that said player base is ok with the xigncode trade off. Otherwise xigncode fails at its point which is to improve game experience by (supposedly) catching cheaters.
  • RandomElin wrote: »
    RandomElin wrote: »
    My understanding is that there was new gear released alongside xigncode. I believe that's the kind of thing that typically does spike the player base.
    Not really anymore, because it's just appended to the end of the existing gear process. It's not like the old days where new gear meant a major change. This is just another "stretch goal" for people who are already at the top, and a new high-end dungeon to go with it. In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor update.
    RandomElin wrote: »
    Regardless, though, the reports are that there has been a noticeable drop in players in game. We are not just talking about a few players leaving. For the drop to be noticeable in game, it would have to be a significant drop. Hate to break this to you, but that potential exodus isn't so potential anymore. Don't know if the exodus is ongoing or not, though.
    Again, the problem is that -- even if this anecdotal evidence were supported by real data -- correlation isn't causation. People's perception of population is influenced by a lot of factors, again not least of which is that we just got off a month of events that made the world seem more populated, and now things are "back to normal."
    RandomElin wrote: »
    I am not saying that the exodus is going to kill TERA NA. There is a possibility it could, though.
    TERA isn't so very special that this software, implemented in plenty of other games and so easily bypassable, is going to kill it. If anything kills it, it'll be BHS's inability to push compelling updates that convince people to come back and keep playing over the long term. Keeping or removing this ineffective software is the least of the problems.

    TERA isn't some special software in this case. Adding something like xigncode to a game with an already formed player base is going to harm that player base. This is because xigncode will diminish game performance (or worse) for a good deal of the player base. Xigncode really needs a self selected player base or a player base that is overwhelmingly asking for it so that said player base is ok with the xigncode trade off. Otherwise xigncode fails at its point which is to improve game experience by (supposedly) catching cheaters.

    There's also the whole issue with xigncode running as admin. Just screams security hole to me.
  • vkobevkobe ✭✭✭✭✭
    http://steamcharts.com/app/323370
    this is only the charts for steam players.
    It looks as if there is a drop of 10 or 20 percent maybe.

    I don't know what the situation is like in game...

    under 1000 you can worry, over 1000 it is still fine
  • allofspaceandtimeallofspaceandtime ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keeping or removing this ineffective software is the least of the problems.... but xigncode isn't helping by bringing in more people. I have never heard anyone say " X game uses xigncode...I must play it ".
    people may leave, but all eme has to do is have a sale, double drop , introduce new costumes , mounts, and the summer event, and people will flock back swiping that credit card so fast, that they will be going back in time. people that has all sorts of costumes, and stuff, will not let something new in the shop slip through their hands. people tried to petition last year and was talking a big game, but that only lasted until the update for the new class and all, and they only stayed away for like a day or 2. if people can play tera without any problems, they wont quit due to xigncode, they will keep playing, keep spending and maybe come on forums complaining and making empty threats.
    im still waiting to see what eme has to say before I update. I might take a chance on it, but idk.
    I don't think its the fact that eme implemented xigncode into the game as much as people feel like if it wasn't for the person making a post about it 2 days before it and eme finally coming in with a closed post talking about it but with not a lot of info on it, makes people feel like if the person didn't male the post, would eme have made a post about it here. it seemed shady and people don't like shady. also add in when we want to find out anything about tera, we have to look at other sites instead of the official tera site. I still don't know why we don't get first info instead of twitter, discord and where ever else they post. im not playing easter egg hunt to try and find out what eme is going to do or not do.
Sign In or Register to comment.