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  • SolheimSolheim ✭✭✭
    The problem is gear exp is the least difficult part of gearing in most people's view. Farming plates takes a while because talents don't drop in enough places/amounts, then refining them takes time where you just afk for 20-30 minutes at a time.

    Add to that that max gear xp only gets you about 25-30% success rate.
    Which is why many people (myself included) have gear xp of like 30000/3500. So adding a booster for gear xp might allow people to progress through twistshard or frost slightly faster, but those aren't really the problem.
  • edited August 2018
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Would either of you be surprised if I told you I was being serious?

    Honestly, I am surprised.

    Personally, it would make me feel as though they created this long grind with the express purpose of selling these boosters, and that I find kind of distasteful. I do get that XP Boost have been sold on the shop (and a feature of Elite) from the start, and somehow most accepted it, but leveling hasn't been that hard for years so it didn't feel like it was pushing the cash shop too much. I guess you could say that neither is Item XP, but still... it just feels gross to me.

    Solheim wrote: »
    So adding a booster for gear xp might allow people to progress through twistshard or frost slightly faster, but those aren't really the problem.
    The thing that really worries me about the "this is pointless because it was never the problem" is that the closer you get to the "real problem" the more unfair any sort of boost would really get. Maybe the whole reason they're adding this one is because it's not that critical and it feels close to the XP boosts that were already there, so it's not "pushing the line" that far. I guess, at the end of the day, I just don't like it, but I suppose now that they don't have as many cosmetics pumping out monthly, they probably figure they've got to come up with something to sell...
  • SageWindu wrote: »
    Would either of you be surprised if I told you I was being serious?

    Honestly, I am surprised.

    Personally, it would make me feel as though they created this long grind with the express purpose of selling these boosters, and that I find kind of distasteful. I do get that XP Boost have been sold on the shop (and a feature of Elite) from the start, and somehow most accepted it, but leveling was never that hard so it didn't feel like it was pushing the cash shop too much. I guess you could say that neither is Item XP, but still... it just feels gross to me.

    Somewhat related, what is your opinion on that while kTera has been selling these xp boosters from the beginning, they get enchanting events that boost fail correction and base enchant chance. Since EME is introducing the more paid aspect of enchanting boosts, wouldn't it be positive to also bring in the non-paid aspect that kTera gets?
  • JXE5356AKE wrote: »
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Would either of you be surprised if I told you I was being serious?

    Honestly, I am surprised.

    Personally, it would make me feel as though they created this long grind with the express purpose of selling these boosters, and that I find kind of distasteful. I do get that XP Boost have been sold on the shop (and a feature of Elite) from the start, and somehow most accepted it, but leveling was never that hard so it didn't feel like it was pushing the cash shop too much. I guess you could say that neither is Item XP, but still... it just feels gross to me.

    Somewhat related, what is your opinion on that while kTera has been selling these xp boosters from the beginning, they get enchanting events that boost fail correction and base enchant chance. Since EME is introducing the more paid aspect of enchanting boosts, wouldn't it be positive to also bring in the non-paid aspect that kTera gets?

    I guess they might as well; I feel like we might have had one sometime before. But it's also sort of like "we made end-game gearing really punishing, but it's okay because every once in a while we make the odds slightly better!" At the end of the day, I don't really like or agree with how they handle end-game gearing at a fundamental level (like many, I thought the new system seemed at first like an improvement, but as it went on they still ramped up the RNG and prices), but I suppose if they're not going to change/fix it (if this is "as intended" in their minds), they might as well leverage events like this as an incentive during the down times.
  • EllexemEllexem ✭✭✭
    SageWindu wrote: »
    (query: still think we don't need a level cap increase?)

    Where would be the practical difference between increasing the level and just increasing the stats?

    Level increases pretty much just mean that you need to buy skills again with slightly better stats. Which just means that you increase a slightly different value in the damage calc for a change.

    Crystals would just get another tier, being slightly better. Numbers get a bit bigger in general. They make the mobs a bit tougher to compensate. Nothing really changes outside of changing some names. (And them likely effectively obsoleting the dyad structures already in the hands of players, so likely more of a net loss of materials available.)

    They could just make another big tier reset like they have done in the past, if you just want to reign enchanting costs back in. Just have another Arsenal like conversion option if you want to be kind to people. It's not like the constant cost reductions on Guardian and Twistshard isn't making them almost pointless as an upgrade step. It's honestly kind of getting to the point where VM gear is almost the entry gear to things, and we have three sets of them active right now.

    Doing that with a level increase, rather than just how it was done in the past, would at best be some kind of placebo effect to make people think that's not what it was.

    If you hope that a level increase would mean that they make actually new skills... well, we effectively did that with the Apex upgrade, so that part seems to be done for the foreseeable future.

    If you think that they'd actually make entirely new content to go with the level increase... well, that's pretty much expecting entirely too much.
  • JXE5356AKE wrote: »
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Would either of you be surprised if I told you I was being serious?

    Honestly, I am surprised.

    Personally, it would make me feel as though they created this long grind with the express purpose of selling these boosters, and that I find kind of distasteful. I do get that XP Boost have been sold on the shop (and a feature of Elite) from the start, and somehow most accepted it, but leveling was never that hard so it didn't feel like it was pushing the cash shop too much. I guess you could say that neither is Item XP, but still... it just feels gross to me.

    Somewhat related, what is your opinion on that while kTera has been selling these xp boosters from the beginning, they get enchanting events that boost fail correction and base enchant chance. Since EME is introducing the more paid aspect of enchanting boosts, wouldn't it be positive to also bring in the non-paid aspect that kTera gets?

    I guess they might as well; I feel like we might have had one sometime before. But it's also sort of like "we made end-game gearing really punishing, but it's okay because every once in a while we make the odds slightly better!" At the end of the day, I don't really like or agree with how they handle end-game gearing at a fundamental level (like many, I thought the new system seemed at first like an improvement, but as it went on they still ramped up the RNG and prices), but I suppose if they're not going to change/fix it (if this is "as intended" in their minds), they might as well leverage events like this as an incentive during the down times.

    I really think EME needs to understand that this is burning people out really badly. Previously at least some players could alleviate burn out on a single class by playing alts, but this doubly punishes that. I understand the argument of not making events too worth it so players don't only play on events, but changing the fundamental gearing system is out of EME's hands, other than slight impact by increasing the supply of materials, which unfortunately they are stubborn about.
  • SolheimSolheim ✭✭✭
    > @JXE5356AKE said:
    > I really think EME needs to understand that this is burning people out really badly. Previously at least some players could alleviate burn out on a single class by playing alts, but this doubly punishes that. I understand the argument of not making events too worth it so players don't only play on events, but changing the fundamental gearing system is out of EME's hands, other than slight impact by increasing the supply of materials, which unfortunately they are stubborn about.

    This is a good point. I know I can't really play on my alts because I'm not willing to spend the gold/mats to upgrade their gear much. I could run TR for the 300th time, but then I'm feeling even more burned out, which ruins the point of playing alts to avoid burnout.

    Some past events have been silly with the rewards -- in both directions where it's either too good or not worth doing.
  • edited August 2018
    JXE5356AKE wrote: »
    JXE5356AKE wrote: »
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Would either of you be surprised if I told you I was being serious?

    Honestly, I am surprised.

    Personally, it would make me feel as though they created this long grind with the express purpose of selling these boosters, and that I find kind of distasteful. I do get that XP Boost have been sold on the shop (and a feature of Elite) from the start, and somehow most accepted it, but leveling was never that hard so it didn't feel like it was pushing the cash shop too much. I guess you could say that neither is Item XP, but still... it just feels gross to me.

    Somewhat related, what is your opinion on that while kTera has been selling these xp boosters from the beginning, they get enchanting events that boost fail correction and base enchant chance. Since EME is introducing the more paid aspect of enchanting boosts, wouldn't it be positive to also bring in the non-paid aspect that kTera gets?

    I guess they might as well; I feel like we might have had one sometime before. But it's also sort of like "we made end-game gearing really punishing, but it's okay because every once in a while we make the odds slightly better!" At the end of the day, I don't really like or agree with how they handle end-game gearing at a fundamental level (like many, I thought the new system seemed at first like an improvement, but as it went on they still ramped up the RNG and prices), but I suppose if they're not going to change/fix it (if this is "as intended" in their minds), they might as well leverage events like this as an incentive during the down times.

    I really think EME needs to understand that this is burning people out really badly. Previously at least some players could alleviate burn out on a single class by playing alts, but this doubly punishes that.
    Honestly, this is the part that I really don't understand about the strategy, given that the game's monetization for years has been about pushing people to create alts (buy character slots, bank slots, wardrobe slots, character-bound costumes/accessories, now mostly character-bound mounts...). So a system that actively discourages people from playing alts seems... backwards? As someone who personally has tons of alts, it's discouraging to me as well.

    I can only guess that they must have looked at the data and found that a large majority were just focusing almost-exclusively on their main class anyway (and thus the monetization plan wasn't working for any of those people), and then executed this change in strategy. (The change in the gear method also coincided with their announcement that they'd stop developing new classes, so maybe that's connected to this strategic decision as well.)

    JXE5356AKE wrote: »
    I understand the argument of not making events too worth it so players don't only play on events, but changing the fundamental gearing system is out of EME's hands, other than slight impact by increasing the supply of materials, which unfortunately they are stubborn about.
    The best I can tell, the current staff are very, very risk-adverse about doing anything that significantly impacts progression flow, probably presuming it's BHS's job to set and balance. Plus, as you say, they've been burnt too many times before by making crazy-rewarding events, and now they've over-compensated the other way (see: summer event). So yeah, I can't imagine they'd even considering adjusting the enchantment success rates via a "permanent event," but maybe short-term events could be on the table.

    I do think BHS have a bit of an "old school" view about how playing the game should be reward enough, and that long grinds make people play the game longer -- which, maybe, by the data, is true for some. But I do also think it burns people out, and Western markets may be a bit more susceptible to that than Eastern ones.
  • EllexemEllexem ✭✭✭
    Honestly, this is the part that I really don't understand about the strategy, given that the game's monetization for years has been about pushing people to create alts (buy character slots, bank slots, wardrobe slots, character-bound costumes/accessories, now mostly character-bound mounts...). So a system that actively discourages people from playing alts seems... backwards? As someone who personally has tons of alts, it's discouraging to me as well.

    I can only guess that they must have looked at the data and found that a large majority were just focusing almost-exclusively on their main class anyway (and thus the monetization plan wasn't working for any of those people), and then executed this change in strategy. (The change in the gear method also coincided with their announcement that they'd stop developing new classes, so maybe that's connected to this strategic decision as well.)

    Weren't they more focused on trying to fix the boom-bust cycle of gearing and player activity? Smooth it out and have continued activity for longer?

    Before they made it longer, the dedicated people were done with it all in something like a month, if even that, and then moved on. Be it playing/gearing alts or just not playing until the next gear set/dungeon/event.

    For good or ill, you're not really able to just be done quickly now, so that part seems to be working as expected, even if the side effects seem to be less than desirable. (To the point where alts are now getting the feeling of being a cost-benefit question of if it's even worth gearing them so that they can feed more effectively to your main. Just wanting to use them to get a different perspective on content, to have a different play style available for when you want variety, seems to be increasingly falling to the wayside, since content availability is more and more based almost entirely around actually being geared.)

    Though it seems that another unintended side effect of stretching the gearing out for longer seems to be a highlighting of how limited the content really is in TERA, because you have to keep doing the same thing day in day out to advance, with very little option for variety. So not even being able to take a different class into that seems like a double-whammy.

    This is starting to feel like another case of a change trying to address a player complaint ending up being effectively more of a net negative again.
  • edited August 2018
    Ellexem wrote: »
    Honestly, this is the part that I really don't understand about the strategy, given that the game's monetization for years has been about pushing people to create alts (buy character slots, bank slots, wardrobe slots, character-bound costumes/accessories, now mostly character-bound mounts...). So a system that actively discourages people from playing alts seems... backwards? As someone who personally has tons of alts, it's discouraging to me as well.

    I can only guess that they must have looked at the data and found that a large majority were just focusing almost-exclusively on their main class anyway (and thus the monetization plan wasn't working for any of those people), and then executed this change in strategy. (The change in the gear method also coincided with their announcement that they'd stop developing new classes, so maybe that's connected to this strategic decision as well.)

    Weren't they more focused on trying to fix the boom-bust cycle of gearing and player activity? Smooth it out and have continued activity for longer?

    Before they made it longer, the dedicated people were done with it all in something like a month, if even that, and then moved on. Be it playing/gearing alts or just not playing until the next gear set/dungeon/event.

    Well, I think you're right, but part of this is also due to our region having events that were so rewarding that there was no reason/benefit to playing the game after that. (Some people got more than all the mats they would need, or the equivalent gold value, just from events.)

    I guess the assumption originally may have been that after you completed the gearing process on one character, you could do it on your alts, since they were trying to encourage people to have alts. As you say, perhaps what they found instead was that a lot of people didn't bother with alts and just stopped playing until the next round. The people who actually did want to gear their alts, though, now aren't being served.

    Personally, I would like them to add a system so that your work on your main character can bring some sort of benefit for your alts that makes the road a bit shorter/easier for them. That way it won't shorten the road for people who focus only on their main, but will not be super-punishing for people who want lots of alts. After all, they still do sell character slots, character-bound items and the like.
  • EllexemEllexem ✭✭✭
    Personally, I would like them to add a system so that your work on your main character can bring some sort of benefit for your alts that makes the road a bit shorter/easier for them. That way it won't shorten the road for people who focus only on their main, but will not be super-punishing for people who want lots of alts. After all, they still do sell character slots, character-bound items and the like.

    I think I've suggested in the past making a temporary gear boost item. You can do say one run of something (or something like 30 minutes, if it needs a timer) with equivalent gear to your main. Perhaps use the earning of that item as a way to push the doing of certain other content where you need people, like say lower tier or leveling dungeons. (Or whatever else they find lacks people.)

    You can then slowly work on getting that alt geared up or just use them to farm mats for your main, whichever you prefer, but your work on your main can give you an advantage.

    Handling of the gear override could perhaps be either simply equalized gear style (probably not that great, since being able to set your own rolls should be something that it open there, or people would likely not be too happy with this). Or maybe make something like a costume tab, only for gear that overrides the stats. Grab some molds or something that you can use with the gear from your main to make the override item, set its rolls as you wish, and then put them in there. The boost item then activates that page for actual use. (Heck, could even turn it into some degree of a gold sink, if that is needed, via the materials for the casts for the override gear being made. Or just also encourage making lower tier casts that can be cheaper if you just want to farm something and don't need the full power of the gear for that. Or casts only lasting for so long, if you need a recurring cost.)

    Just throwing ideas out there really, in case it inspires someone.

    As you say, there being some actual benefit to having done the main work already on one character would be nice. So that you can still have access to the same amounts of content when you go to an alt, and not just potentially being stuck in doing things that you really don't want to.
  • CatservantCatservant ✭✭✭✭
    This is a fantastic read in this thread, I love all the points that are being made, and I hope someone at EME is reading this and taking notes.

    There are some great ideas in here.
  • I've had gear at 99% and still got a fail, so 25% falls on floor laughing, Think I'll stay a low player and waste my money on fashion ;)
  • ToxicDemiseToxicDemise ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hell, why not make it easier to obtain essence, and veilthroch aside from the hardest dungeon in game on hard mode. 30 battleground coins for 1 essence which equals about on average 20 games depending whether you get 1,2 or 3 coins which most the time is 1 coin. Each game lasts about 20-30 mins which is about the same time frame it takes someone to run a PVE dungeon. The only difference is the PVP player has to run the equivalent of 15-20 battlegrounds to get ONE essence when a PVE player gets to run 1 dungeon and has a good chance at getting 1-3 essence. I'd rather see a huge reduction in the costs of buying essence with dungeon coins rather than some dumb XP boost which only proves the point being made here that this game is starting to become a pay to win. You're basically slapping current players in the face that have spent a huge amount of time obtaining the xp they have by giving people a free pass to skip that entire process if they pay for it. THAT is the definition of PAY TO WIN!
  • Hell, why not make it easier to obtain essence, and veilthroch aside from the hardest dungeon in game on hard mode. 30 battleground coins for 1 essence which equals about on average 20 games depending whether you get 1,2 or 3 coins which most the time is 1 coin. Each game lasts about 20-30 mins which is about the same time frame it takes someone to run a PVE dungeon. The only difference is the PVP player has to run the equivalent of 15-20 battlegrounds to get ONE essence when a PVE player gets to run 1 dungeon and has a good chance at getting 1-3 essence. I'd rather see a huge reduction in the costs of buying essence with dungeon coins rather than some dumb XP boost which only proves the point being made here that this game is starting to become a pay to win. You're basically slapping current players in the face that have spent a huge amount of time obtaining the xp they have by giving people a free pass to skip that entire process if they pay for it. THAT is the definition of PAY TO WIN!

    Except it's really not? What part of ixp is going to guarantee success on an enchant attempt? I currently have about 40 xp boosters sitting in my bank, I've been collecting them since I started rolling characters, and have maybe used 2 total getting 5 toons to 65, and one sitting at 63 this morning. Nope, not a lot of characters, but that doesn't account for the 7 I deleted that were 45+ when they confirmed that they're doing a server merge, no point in getting invested in toons I may have to delete anyway. I digress however: Increasing the amount of ixp you get doesn't solve the main issue I'm seeing both in this thread, and in game; failing enchants. Unless you think failing sooner is somehow a win?
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