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Why do I keep making the same mistake again and again,returning back to this cancerous game.

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Comments

  • kamizumakamizuma ✭✭✭✭
    vkobe wrote: »
    kamizuma wrote: »
    dont like rng? buy my +7-9 stormcry items!

    only if you sell your avatar B)

    buy all my stormcry and we shall see!
  • JerichowJerichow ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with what others have said, the only real change needed to the current system is that 100% GearXP = 100% Enchant success, then nobody would have a serious problem with the new gear revamp because aside from that one issue, it's actually quite good.

    The only thing would be, is how much GearXP it would take to get to 100% at each level, at the values it is at now, it would be too easy. I wouldn't mind grinding more GearXP per level if it meant I could get to 100%, because this gives everyone a linear progression path, which is much more desirable than hoping RNG is having a good day, because we all know: If RNG is having a bad day, YOU are going to have a bad day, and progression should never be tied to luck.
  • edited August 2018
    Jerichow wrote: »
    progression should never be tied to luck.

    I feel like this really captures the biggest cultural difference between Korean MMOs and your typical North American cultural expectations.

    That being said, "progression" is really the key point here. It's not as if people are culturally-opposed to all RNG (famous dungeon-crawlers like Diablo (etc.) are all about RNG drops), but you usually have a baseline to progress and it's just for marginal improvements (special stats, set bonuses, a coveted look/skin, something super rare, etc.). So really the fundamental problem with TERA (and lots of other Korean MMOs, in fairness) is that they make progression itself the journey and once you hit the end of the line there's "nothing to do." But really, the game needs reasons to keep on playing the content even once you have end-game gear. Then you can make progression easier and more linear, while true end-game is more open-ended.

    Of course, this kind of major philosophical shift is probably impossible, and for all I know it may not be what the Korean market would expect or find fun.
  • MeningitisMeningitis ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    That being said, "progression" is really the key point here. It's not as if people are culturally-opposed to all RNG (famous dungeon-crawlers like Diablo (etc.) are all about RNG drops), but you usually have a baseline to progress and it's just for marginal improvements (special stats, set bonuses, a coveted look/skin, something super rare, etc.). So really the fundamental problem with TERA (and lots of other Korean MMOs, in fairness) is that they make progression itself the journey and once you hit the end of the line there's "nothing to do." But really, the game needs reasons to keep on playing the content even once you have end-game gear. Then you can make progression easier and more linear, while true end-game is more open-ended.

    Of course, this kind of major philosophical shift is probably impossible, and for all I know it may not be what the Korean market would expect or find fun.
    This is something I think about often concerning MMOs as well. I'm sure my opinion is an unpopular one- but I'm fine with BiS being incredibly hard to get (not to the insane level of Oath enchanting though). Most people seem to disagree with me because a lot of players seem to "play for loot" and to max out their gear instead of "play for the experience." I've known a lot of people who have made themselves miserable grinding max tier content for ages to get BiS over and over before the new gear system was introduced, and say they hated doing said content. I asked them why they kept playing it, and the answer was always "I need the best gear" even though if they did get the best gear they hated the max end game content anyway and there'd be no reason to have BiS gear. I'm not going to condemn "play for loot" players, but I do think it's a serious problem and Tera itself could help pad that issue by including loot that doesn't directly tie into getting BiS gear (achievement/loot specific mounts, costumes, more titles, special consumables, etc). As an example of that, I know quite a few people who said they would have done a lot of Demon's Wheel if the special prizes weren't limited. Even if BHS made progression more linear and made post BiS gear content, I'd wager people would only really play it consistently if they could make fantastic monetary gain in game or help gear alts with it. That's because I hardly meet any players that seem to actually play the game for the sake of playing it.
  • edited August 2018
    Meningitis wrote: »
    Even if BHS made progression more linear and made post BiS gear content, I'd wager people would only really play it consistently if they could make fantastic monetary gain in game or help gear alts with it. That's because I hardly meet any players that seem to actually play the game for the sake of playing it.

    Well you're right that core players are very "min-max" oriented in terms of how they spend their time. I guess people don't want to feel like they're falling behind in the rat race. Even if they really enjoy something, if they know there's something else less fun they would be better-rewarded to do, that makes it feel bad to do the thing they love and as though they're being "forced" to do things they don't love. Other people who may feel more "neutral" (don't really care about one vs. the other) will start doing the more-rewarding content, and that makes it harder to find parties for the things they love, creating a sort of death spiral. And then, realizing that it's no longer possible to "keep up" while doing what they enjoy, many people just choose to give up and find something else to do.

    In the end, the whole problem is about balance and finding ways so that different demographics can primarily do the things they love and not feel like they're wasting their time to do so. Finding that proper balance is actually really hard and really easy to mess up... but I think most would agree that the balance isn't quite where it needs to be for our region at the moment. If they did change the progression system around, it would definitely require a lot of ingenuity to find a new balance that works... but I at least want to believe it's possible.

    (And again, it really seems to me that this problem is happening in various manifestations with a lot of MMOs right now. It feels like the MMO genre on the whole is struggling to evolve into its next form to match what players these days want, and some of the old methods/systems just aren't working anymore.)
  • ReChoaReChoa ✭✭✭
    There isn't a single MMO in existence that doesn't have some sort of grind element to it.

    To complain about that just tells me that you shouldn't be playing an MMO.

    Like others have said, the issue isn't the fact that there's grinding, it's what you have to grind. Fighting IOD bams, low tier dungeons or Guardian bosses barely even requires you to react to the boss most of the time, it's like punching a sandbag but even more mind-numbing. I've put in like nearly 200 hours in MHW since it's PC release because it's actually fun, meanwhile I can't be assed to log in to tera, MHW is literally all grind, but I, and many others, find it fun, why? Cause you're not forced to grind the easiest [filtered] in the game when you have end-game gear, there's a lot of variation in the game too. I even enjoyed grinding [filtered] in vanilla/WOTLK WoW recently more than grinding in this game.
  • I don't really want to take explicit sides, because there's points that I agree with on both ends, both as a casual and a core/ hardcore member of the community I do think as a developer it is extremely hard to please everybody. I, too would like lower level rewards(Silver Talents) to reach the higher tiers and for boss mechanics to be a bit more complicated, but then casual players would outcry that you have to be good to play the game, or another unheard of reason. On the other hand, as a casual player you'd kind of want everything to be within their reach, but core players feel like the game is dumbed down and they're not being rewarded as much for later game content. (Assuming that the posts from people are anything to go by)

    Again, not siding with EME or the players, the one side I will take is that grind is subjective. You may be doing the same things over and over again, but as long as you have a set goal in mind you find it fun, you see a purpose. I'm not talking about things like "I want to get to 100k gold by the end of this week", although those are goals too, I'm talking about the "I want to get batter at X class so I can understand its interactions with various monsters and attacks". An example I'll pull out of my own experience is when I was playing Tales of Zestria, and I was roaming around the ruins that revolve around Edna's abilities, I was running around initiating random fights with monsters thinking to myself that I want to learn how this character is played and how can I do some good combos with them, but then I realized that what I was doing was essentially grinding (I needed to level to face the boss), and I found it weird, because I was having fun doing that. Snap back to TERA, the reason I believe I have fun despite the seemingly endless grind, is purely because I'm so captivated by the combat system, I love the no lock on method for combat (attacking, not healing) and the fact that I can clearly see the area a boss' attack will affect, the knowledge that I can either dodge this attack or try to block it. Also huge monsters, but alas, there's monster hunter world for that now.

    This is just my opinion, I don't want to undermine anything anybody else has said, just want to pitch in and explain my thoughts

    In the end I really like how this video puts things into perspective, because I very much agree with this, as this was his experience, and no amount of convincing will change his experience about the game.
  • YordanYordan ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    In the end koreans don't care, this game is supposed to generate profit and only way to do that at this point is milking long time players with gear that becomes progressively harder to get. Just wait till oath gets +9 enchancement, which will happen sooner or later. Chance at that point will be probably 10% with maxed xp and mountain of plates. Plates alone would require you to grind easiest possible bams for days upon days of 1-2 shotting them on multiple alts. Tbh at least during kn mes farming days you didn't need ats for it. Currently without alts you can't farm anything even if you can handle boredom of doing same super easy content. You end up playing on alts more than your main, really only way to actually enjoy playing this game is buying everything for real money and not a small amount at that. It's only gonna get worse and worse over time.

    and as always saying it here does absolutely nothing, it would have to be done on korean forums in korean to maybe have some tiny amount of impact

    At least there they get enchanting events, from what I know there was never any of it in neither NA or EU.
  • JerichowJerichow ✭✭✭✭
    I think something that would drastically shift the grind in this game is if harder things like top tier BAMs and higher tier dungeons consistently paid better materials and rewards over lower tiers.

    Just the fact alone that grinding out low tier BAMS is/was a thing to get gold talents fastest is a problem. It incentivized grinding higher tier BAMs unless you needed the specific materials they gave. If they gave correspondingly higher amounts of materials (ie: talents) than lower tiers, it would balance out that part of the grind a lot better.

    MMO Grinding 101: Harder Content = More/better rewards.

    Same with dungeons, if they gave more talents and/or gold per run, especially since they're gated behind run limits per day - it would be more worth-while to do them. However, I agree with others - having things to do with that BiS gear other than running the same dungeons that you did to GET the gear would be a huge boon for this game.

    I would love to see things like Diablo 3's greater rifts in Tera, where you can solo or group up to run competitive content. Bringing back dungeon scoring and leaderboards for fastest clear times of every dungeon would be awesome too. It's not huge, but it's something that gives reason to need BiS gear, and to get better at the game beyond just having the highest stats.

    What about an infinite-scaling Celestial Arena that got progressively harder until you quit, or died, with a mini-boss every 10 waves, and rewards got progressively better as you went on? It would be something similar to Warframe's endless missions with (hopefully better) scaling rewards that people would have to do alone. Add a leader board to that and you'll have extremely competitive PVE content that players from every tier can and would want to participate in.
  • ChristinChristin ✭✭✭✭
    kubitoid wrote: »
    @Christin , speaking in Equitas's voice: why are you still here posting on these forums??

    Once again there is kubi to make another post that doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the OP. One minute you are Equitas' lapdog, and the next, you are slamming him behind his back. No wonder the game is going downhill with all the whiny, men babies that play it. Could you guys be any more obvious? "Mom, this player said she was gonna leave the game, but she is still on the forums!" Whawhawha! Enough with the crying and whining already!
    kamizuma wrote: »
    dont like rng? buy my +7-9 stormcry items!

    Yes, that is probably the way to go if people have the gold. There still is the point of the annoying rng for the other gear not to mention still being forced to do the content dictated by the devs.
  • ChristinChristin ✭✭✭✭
    voidy wrote: »
    Christin wrote: »

    The curse was that the devs listened to people that complained the game was too easy rather than appealing to casual gamers that have no interest in no-lifeing a game.

    While I agree with the rest of your post, I think the opposite might actually be true in this case. By making IOD/Ghilie/Guardians/low-tier dungeons the most profitable gold:time ratio activities, the developers catered to the casual crowd that didn't want to spend time forming groups and learning the harder content, but still wanted the rewards of being dedicated to a game. An example is here in the thread: Corvus posted a pretty clear cut example of how he makes ~20k+ a day by just logging in for an hour or two at most and doing fairly basic stuff. If this game had truly taken the side of no-lifers and hardcore players, then the better rewards would be centered around the top tiers of content instead of being almost exclusively around the bottom.

    I agree with the rest. RNG is awful. Nobody wants to bother with the whole process. It's pretty obvious that, rather than give us decent content every month or so, the devs opted to simply deliver content at a drip-feed pace, while dragging out gear patches for as long as possible using an RNG system that extends the gearing process artificially. "If it takes them several months to achieve their goals, that's several months that they're playing our game!" is probably what BHS were thinking, but they failed to account for people simply leaving and not coming back. feelsbadman
    voidy wrote: »
    There were also a bunch of events that handed the enchanting materials out since EME realized back then that the enchanting system called for a virtually unlimited amount of the things and didn't shy away from doling out the bottleneck materials like they do now.
    Honestly, I really wonder if this was the biggest change. Some of these events were so generous with enchanting mats that they influenced the markets for an entire gear cycle, and this completely changed the way people played the game. Essentially, it made it so that people could entirely skip grinding the kinds of content they didn't like and just use events or gold to bypass it. I wonder if the way the game is playing now is more similar to what regions like K-TERA had all along. Not trying to say at all that this is better or makes it a good fit for our region (and the super-lucrative events brought their own problems), but I'm just wondering how much of this is really about the gear system itself and how much of it is just because of EME's change in philosophy.

    (That being said, even BHS had to admit that the latest tiers were a bridge too far in K-TERA, so it's not entirely just our region and its events.)

    Yeah, it's definitely true that we had an "easier" time with the old gear system because of all the crazy events centered around it. Honestly I think the main issue is with how materials are distributed in general. There's nothing inherently wrong with the new gearing system; the problem is that one of the main items (talents) can only be obtained in a small number of ways which leads to the bottleneck that everyone complains about. Even though feedstock could always be obtained in any dungeon, EME still went out of their way to dole the things out like candy for some reason, which made the no-failstack void of awakened enchanting much easier. EME wouldn't have to do anything that extreme this time; simply making talents available in all dungeons would probably be enough for people at this point, but it's moot now.

    Yeah, but WTF is 20k even when the gear takes hundreds of thousands of gold just for one enchanting attempt? Sure, guardians have made making gold a lot easier, but not many players want to waste thousands on an enchanting attempt versus just saving up a few days for a mount or cosmetic item. Plus, what is even the reward to wasting all of that gold to level up gear? Does higher gear let me do more fun content? Nope. Not that the pit isn't a total blast.

    Lets face it, the devs haven't put enough effort into solo content, because people like Equitas and others keeps telling them that solo players are trash and not needed. Well, yeah, they are. It's obvious Tera can no longer sustain constantly being able to supply dungeon teams. Most players are playing at odd hours and have no hope of being able to consistently find teams. The ones that do find teams, end up with irritated players that just want to spam dungeons and get the runs over with. New players that slow everyone up are not welcome.

    You need solo content to keep solo players logging in and playing longer and group content for those that want that. No doubt people will be playing solo content while they wait for teams to pop. The legion quests were supposed to help with the solo content, but even those were losing interest. The two longer quests and Tuwangi Training were the only legion events with a consistent amount of players. Seeing how popular the totally solo Tuwangi quest is should give some indication as to how many players have absolutely no interest in playing with other players at all. You can trash them all you want, but they are still a huge market to simply give a middle finger to. If you do, you lose players.
  • YA6LMTRK7TYA6LMTRK7T ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    The guardian legion quests were never supposed to be part of the solo content except some them.But they were so badly made.that at the moment they neither give a pleasure to the lonely wolves nor to the group raiders.The harder boss fights are just meant to be made with a group with a tank and healer/healers for maximum contribution and actually killing the boss.I can't understand why the [filtered] the healers and tanks have to.be forced to be a dps while they are a lot more effective in.their actual roles.Thats why I hate.guardians and don't see any point doing them untill I get endgame gear.
  • ChristinChristin ✭✭✭✭
    YA6LMTRK7T wrote: »
    The guardian legion quests were never supposed to be part of the solo content except some them.But they were so badly made.that at the moment they neither give a pleasure to the lonely wolves nor to the group raiders.The harder boss fights are just meant to be made with a group with a tank and healer/healers for maximum contribution and actually killing the boss.I can't understand why the [filtered] the healers and tanks have to.be forced to be a dps while they are a lot more effective in.their actual roles.Thats why I hate.guardians and don't see any point doing them untill I get endgame gear.

    By solo content, I mean the content you can do as a solo player. You can technically do all of the legion quests as a solo players even though they allow for a team. It's not like the dungeons where you are mandated to have 5 people or a healer and tank. They are quests you can do without having to wait for a group to pop.
  • MoonpeltMoonpelt ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    > @ValiantCorvus said:
    Most the jackoffs on this forum are just a bunch of entitled whiners that don't actually play the game.

    You’re giving the same attitude just from the perspective of the entitled horders who hasn’t had to start from square one. I digress though.

    I can agree with that.

    People need to take the time to realize the games values.

    It has amazing graphics despite poor optimization but they said they are working on that.

    It is not a pay to win or pay to play game really, you can spend your time getting a lot from just fake gold and you don't need a membership unlike games with WoW or ArcheAge. Do some flying missions I earned over 50k gold over a few days! Black Desert Online is just grinding like really really grinding. Bless Online just seems horrible with the lag and timing.

    Staff are pretty freaken nice, I talk to them a lot in DM and seem they work hard. So at least they aren't lazy and mean. I can't blame them for BlueHole's mistakes, BlueHole owns Tera really and make a lot of the restrictions that EME can't have or do in the game with making things or most in general. If EME were able to own Tera Online prior, then I can tell they would make the game better than BlueHole Studios.

    Mounts are cool, I haven't seem much mount creativity in a lot of games except WoW but even still then WoW lacks that a bit.

    It's fun and relaxing at times to just play and hang out. Sure the majority of it is dungeons but with the new things like fishing coming soon it should be good. New sky missions are fun too but that's my opinion.

    Enchanting has gotten a lot easier.

    Community is nice and better than a lot of games.


    **FOR ALL WHINERS AND COMPLAINERS AND TROLLS** Please go away your not helping or doing anything better to this game. You're the ones that started or tried playing and don't take the time to see these values. Positivity is better than Negativity. The more positive the better it is.

  • YA6LMTRK7TYA6LMTRK7T ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Moonpelt wrote: »
    > @ValiantCorvus said:
    Most the jackoffs on this forum are just a bunch of entitled whiners that don't actually play the game.

    You’re giving the same attitude just from the perspective of the entitled horders who hasn’t had to start from square one. I digress though.

    I can agree with that.

    People need to take the time to realize the games values.

    It has amazing graphics despite poor optimization but they said they are working on that.

    It is not a pay to win or pay to play game really, you can spend your time getting a lot from just fake gold and you don't need a membership unlike games with WoW or ArcheAge. Do some flying missions I earned over 50k gold over a few days! Black Desert Online is just grinding like really really grinding. Bless Online just seems horrible with the lag and timing.

    Staff are pretty freaken nice, I talk to them a lot in DM and seem they work hard. So at least they aren't lazy and mean. I can't blame them for BlueHole's mistakes, BlueHole owns Tera really and make a lot of the restrictions that EME can't have or do in the game with making things or most in general. If EME were able to own Tera Online prior, then I can tell they would make the game better than BlueHole Studios.

    Mounts are cool, I haven't seem much mount creativity in a lot of games except WoW but even still then WoW lacks that a bit.

    It's fun and relaxing at times to just play and hang out. Sure the majority of it is dungeons but with the new things like fishing coming soon it should be good. New sky missions are fun too but that's my opinion.

    Enchanting has gotten a lot easier.

    Community is nice and better than a lot of games.


    **FOR ALL WHINERS AND COMPLAINERS AND TROLLS** Please go away your not helping or doing anything better to this game. You're the ones that started or tried playing and don't take the time to see these values. Positivity is better than Negativity. The more positive the better it is.
    "Community is nice and better than a lot of games" Was it sarcasm? Maybe better than some games but far from nice.Even the tons of failures during enchanting haven't made me ragequit as the toxity of the community.Even during the period i were playing WoW i didn't faced so many problem with the people around me.I can give plenty of examples: FWC...... an .example of pure cancer , i had cases , when the healer was refusing to heal me only because it was my first time in a dungeon and i was unable to dodge every single attack from the boss , even though i was needing just some time to get used to boss movements and so on... .It happens really really rarely to get into a party veterans in which are actually enjoying the dungeons and are willing to help newer players.But at least a little bit i understand the majority.They are so drained from the awful and frustrating grind that most aren't enjoying anymore the game and are doing everything mechanically.That makes me refuse more and more doing anything with other people.

    About mounts - yes , of couse they will be cool if players are paying tons of real money for them . Have you seen a cool mounts in the fashion coupon shop , obtainable from a completing achievments , just one iron dragon that you have to farm some months to get without alts.

    And yes they are working on the optimization from 3 years maybe they will need like 2-3 more.Nobody care how beautiful the game is if you have to run it at the most trash setting to manage to get more than 20 frames in dungeons.

    The only thing that make come to the game again and again is that its the best from the other all F2P trash MMOs or i would say it was.I miss the time when level cap was 60.
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