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In attempt to clear up misinformation regarding Proxy

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Comments

  • Superp117 wrote: »
    You can say "see they dont REALLY care" just because they arent running back into a burning building, that disregards how they feel and sets them up to be an object.
    I am not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just.. as the title says.. clearing up misinformation. It goes both ways. If you claim to want an accurate portrayal of proxy/issues facing the community, you can't just give the story from one perspective.
    From the standpoint of a game dev, a program that makes it MUCH easier to modify core elements of the game is a really bad thing to have out in the wild.
    However, given that their response comes 2-3 years after a HUGE amount of their playerbase came to rely on it, there were many many better ways to handle this. Personally in their shoes I would have tried to have a solution in place before taking action, because not only does dmca solve nothing, it also means people get more annoyed at a company they are already frustrated with.

    At this point, it's pretty late for a solution to come from eme. The only option players have remains what it was last month, turn to 3rd party tools and hope someone out there can help.

    At the core of this issue is the massive disconnect between EME and their playerbase - EME does not really understand why people turn to proxy because they don't really understand why/how people play tera.
  • All i did was google tera proxy, and i can see why u'all "developper" are getting the banhammer.

    U already openly admit that:
    TERA Proxy is a packet injection framework that allows the creation and use of mods that affect the game's networking.

    And:
    Providing an easy framework with which to manipulate packets, it allows players to fix some of the most severe issues themselves.

    Also:
    While it can be argued this makes it easier to find and exploit vulnerabilities, we believe the benefits vastly outweigh the risks. Additionally, many applications such as Alkahest, Cheat Engine, etc. carry these same risks. In the end, it's up to individual developers to responsibly disclose bugs rather than abuse them.

    Its exploitable, open to abuse, and u dont even have a guarantee that it will not lead to malicious use.
    It is what it is. And u dont get to decide what benefits outweigh which risks on their stuff.

    Either u apply for the job in eme/bluehole through proper channel, or simply stop tampering with other people's product.
    I heard eme is looking for a 'Release Engineer'... i think its the one without an arcannon.
    :smile:
  • Superp117 wrote: »
    You do not need the proxy to cheat. You can cheat without it. But thats besides the point, this stance of yours, i could be mis interpreting, is contradictory to the primary statement. Why even suggest petitioning to the thing youre opposing in the same paragraph?

    I don't support proxy, and I don't think EME should either. I'm telling you that if you really want proxy to work on NA again, you're barking up the wrong tree.

    Also, reading comprehension, man. I didn't say you need proxy to cheat, I said you CAN use proxy to cheat (and it makes it a LOT easier..)

    As far as legal action goes, DMCA is pretty much a joke, they just throw those out like candy for absolutely anything these days. If proxy devs really cared about NA community like everyone is claiming, they'd still support it until some form of actual legal complaint gets filed, rather than doing everything in their meager power to stop people from using proxy on NA.

    You're taking a really shallow view on the matter. Since proxy came out people have been permanently banned for very little. Meishu was permanently banned after having played since VM1/CBT days. Bern was banned, Pinkie was banned. And they still developed the tools. More people getting banned over time, on top of EME completely ignoring any and every attempt of their approach to try and improve the game, reporting bugs, reporting exploits, reporting the solutions to those and still they were being completely ignored. Asking for any sort of communication and being completely ignored and targeted with bans, dmca's, several attempts at obfuscating the opcodes and making it as hard as possible to keep 3rd party softwares running.

    All of that over a period of over a year culminated in this situation, what they did was just the last straw. What is done is done. To any poor soul attempting to keep it running on NA they can expect even more vicious waves of Bans and other actions against them and their users.
  • Saabi wrote: »
    One of the 3rd party developers did a write up to help create a proper understanding of proxy and it's intentions. If youre interested give this a read.

    I think tera-proxy + SP is an incredible tool to fix the game latency issues, but it has become more than that, that's probably why EME took action and I think it's just matter of time for other regions to do the same.

    They forgot to mention the major security flaws it has being a script running with elevated access on your machine, allowing you to add modules of any random person on github with unattended automatic updates (cali version).

    If they kept their project small and focused like shinra or tcc, I doubt they would bother with it, but tera-proxy right now is more like a development platform than just an attempt to improve gameplay.
  • I suggested back when we had this fiasco last year that eme should get ahold of the proxy program, give it to someone they trust to go through it to see how it works, make sure its safe to use and then implement it into the game. I suggested it again in the other thread that our cm made, I would love to be able to play the game with good ping and no lag, but I don't want to risk losing my account by using 3rd party software.
  • ElinLoveElinLove ✭✭✭✭✭
    Superp117 wrote: »
    You do not need the proxy to cheat. You can cheat without it. But thats besides the point, this stance of yours, i could be mis interpreting, is contradictory to the primary statement. Why even suggest petitioning to the thing youre opposing in the same paragraph?

    I don't support proxy, and I don't think EME should either. I'm telling you that if you really want proxy to work on NA again, you're barking up the wrong tree.

    Also, reading comprehension, man. I didn't say you need proxy to cheat, I said you CAN use proxy to cheat (and it makes it a LOT easier..)

    As far as legal action goes, DMCA is pretty much a joke, they just throw those out like candy for absolutely anything these days. If proxy devs really cared about NA community like everyone is claiming, they'd still support it until some form of actual legal complaint gets filed, rather than doing everything in their meager power to stop people from using proxy on NA.

    You're taking a really shallow view on the matter. Since proxy came out people have been permanently banned for very little. Meishu was permanently banned after having played since VM1/CBT days. Bern was banned, Pinkie was banned. And they still developed the tools. More people getting banned over time, on top of EME completely ignoring any and every attempt of their approach to try and improve the game, reporting bugs, reporting exploits, reporting the solutions to those and still they were being completely ignored. Asking for any sort of communication and being completely ignored and targeted with bans, dmca's, several attempts at obfuscating the opcodes and making it as hard as possible to keep 3rd party softwares running.

    All of that over a period of over a year culminated in this situation, what they did was just the last straw. What is done is done. To any poor soul attempting to keep it running on NA they can expect even more vicious waves of Bans and other actions against them and their users.

    One of the big issues here, is that people feel like TERA is some sort of open source community project. Sorry but that's not really the case. Not in the slightest. Having a community playing it doesn't mean at all, that the community develops the product as well. It's a closed source, particular company product, produced overseas on top of that, and distributed (in our case) by their sister/child company, also private one with closed source codes.

    The devs playing the game since beta doesn't mean they get the authority to develop it, regardless of both their competence or the original dev's lack thereof. The "Played since X" is a feels matter, shouldn't even be brought up, and doesn't change the fact that you cannot tamper with the net code of the game. The bans were valid even if the intentions were good. I could give away my account to some new player to have a fun start in TERA with tons of costumes and cute characters and the ban would be as valid. There's no such thing as Robin Hood in real life, that breaks rules for the good of others, and much less can one complain about the rules applying to him/herself when they're broken, just because of intentions.

    As @KillerPenguins is saying through many comments that thankfully ain't getting flamed for who knows what kind of sense-bomb people got hit by, there isn't much to question the company's stance on removing a tool that messes up packets from their product to their servers. What's up to question is their methods and time taken for this. Even I as a company owner wouldn't let something like this roam around.
    Whoever my stance regarding how it was dealt with would be a heck lot different of course, I would never have just out of the blue taken it down without a word, and if it really is true that the devs have been contacting En Masse to give this out as a solution, then I would have taken this to a higher priority as a potential solution.

    And still would not just pick his/her code as-is and implement as a thankful gift. No way in hell I would be doing something this stupid. You can't just blindly trust that an external developer fixed your product and take it as-is. Specially, since the developer itself knows it's big issues, exploitability, and the desync problem. Also as @TheCatalyst said, "And u dont get to decide what benefits outweigh which risks on their stuff.", someone outside the product team, decides which benefits outweigh which risks. As a company, would you REALLY allow this?


    And as I said on other posts: the argument that this gives an even playing field isn't valid in my view, since this does require you to not abide by the rules, risking getting (rightfully) banned/blocked from the game, and thus not everyone has it. It's a matter of risk if you use it or not, a risk which isn't fair. Getting benefits (call if fixes if you want) that others don't have because you risk your account isn't fair.
    And as said, even the ones that do not need it, get even more benefits, so there goes away all the "even playfield" argument too. Not to mention the desync issue with causes issues to the ones around you, and there's simply no argument I can take as valid for this.
  • AryixAryix ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    *Look at image on post below*

    If proxy had been just SP, then y'know, *maybe* it wouldn't be as bad.

    edit: If you seriously think proxy is only for ping reduction, think again. It was developed by players, then it should have been controlled by the same players that developed it to make sure that their tool was only used for what it was intended.
  • DiineveDiineve ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Saabi wrote: »
    One of the 3rd party developers did a write up to help create a proper understanding of proxy and it's intentions. If youre interested give this a read.

    About TERA Proxy


    What is TERA Proxy?
    TERA Proxy is a packet injection framework that allows the creation and use of mods that affect the game's networking.

    Why?
    TERA Proxy was developed in response to the large number of game bugs unaddressed by Bluehole Studios (especially in regards to high latency). By providing an easy framework with which to manipulate packets, it allows players to fix some of the most severe issues themselves.

    While it can be argued this makes it easier to find and exploit vulnerabilities, we believe the benefits vastly outweigh the risks. Additionally, many applications such as Alkahest, Cheat Engine, etc. carry these same risks. In the end, it's up to individual developers to responsibly disclose bugs rather than abuse them.

    TL;DR proxy was made to fix bugs, not abuse them.

    What is Skill Prediction?
    Virtually all online games employ a technique called client-side prediction in order to reduce the effect ping has on gameplay.

    Tera's netcode was lazily designed around Korean network conditions of 10ms ping or less, and does not have prediction for anything besides player movement. This is where Skill Prediction comes in.

    Skill Prediction adds client-side prediction to skills by simulating an instant server response, effectively making them work the same regardless of whether you have 0ms ping or 500ms ping. If implemented properly, this does not cause any issues.

    How does proxy impact regular (non-proxy) players?
    Proxy + Skill Prediction enables people who live far from the servers to be able to play the game competitively and have fun. This means you'll have more friends, rivals, and people to play with in general; which is always a good thing in an MMO!

    Does proxy increase the number of cheaters?
    More players means more cheaters, and that's a simple fact. We TERA Proxy developers encourage users to play responsibly and do everything we can (within reason) to limit the spread of cheats. The rest is up to the players to report cheaters, the publishers to ban them, and the developers to fix the root issues.

    Why are some publishers against proxy?

    Simply put: They don't want to deal with it.

    Most companies would rather not rely on some unknown third-party software to keep their game operational, and that's totally understandable. However, we try to be very open with how TERA Proxy works in hopes that some of them will understand and allow (or at least ignore) it for players' benefit.

    As it is not our game, we can't give any guarantees. However we can at least convey our best intentions.

    Thanks for reading. And whether you use proxy or not, have fun!~ Pinkie Pie

    SXpXkOp.png

    your point again ? byebye cheaters xd , eme just doing their job ^^
  • ElinLove wrote: »
    Quote

    I mean you can word the way you want, you can explain how it's their product, how the proxy can be used to exploit and such. Except that Proxy + DPS Meter combo kept a huge part of the end-game community active and playing.

    Can EME set their foot down and say 'okay now more proxy from now on', yes. Is it the smart choice given the state of the game? Absolutely not. They can do whatever they want including kill their own game, and if they're dead-set in doing that, there's nothing we can do other than move to another region or stop playing altogether.
  • Diineve wrote: »
    Saabi wrote: »
    One of the 3rd party developers did a write up to help create a proper understanding of proxy and it's intentions. If youre interested give this a read.

    About TERA Proxy


    What is TERA Proxy?
    TERA Proxy is a packet injection framework that allows the creation and use of mods that affect the game's networking.

    Why?
    TERA Proxy was developed in response to the large number of game bugs unaddressed by Bluehole Studios (especially in regards to high latency). By providing an easy framework with which to manipulate packets, it allows players to fix some of the most severe issues themselves.

    While it can be argued this makes it easier to find and exploit vulnerabilities, we believe the benefits vastly outweigh the risks. Additionally, many applications such as Alkahest, Cheat Engine, etc. carry these same risks. In the end, it's up to individual developers to responsibly disclose bugs rather than abuse them.

    TL;DR proxy was made to fix bugs, not abuse them.

    What is Skill Prediction?
    Virtually all online games employ a technique called client-side prediction in order to reduce the effect ping has on gameplay.

    Tera's netcode was lazily designed around Korean network conditions of 10ms ping or less, and does not have prediction for anything besides player movement. This is where Skill Prediction comes in.

    Skill Prediction adds client-side prediction to skills by simulating an instant server response, effectively making them work the same regardless of whether you have 0ms ping or 500ms ping. If implemented properly, this does not cause any issues.

    How does proxy impact regular (non-proxy) players?
    Proxy + Skill Prediction enables people who live far from the servers to be able to play the game competitively and have fun. This means you'll have more friends, rivals, and people to play with in general; which is always a good thing in an MMO!

    Does proxy increase the number of cheaters?
    More players means more cheaters, and that's a simple fact. We TERA Proxy developers encourage users to play responsibly and do everything we can (within reason) to limit the spread of cheats. The rest is up to the players to report cheaters, the publishers to ban them, and the developers to fix the root issues.

    Why are some publishers against proxy?

    Simply put: They don't want to deal with it.

    Most companies would rather not rely on some unknown third-party software to keep their game operational, and that's totally understandable. However, we try to be very open with how TERA Proxy works in hopes that some of them will understand and allow (or at least ignore) it for players' benefit.

    As it is not our game, we can't give any guarantees. However we can at least convey our best intentions.

    Thanks for reading. And whether you use proxy or not, have fun!~ Pinkie Pie

    SXpXkOp.png

    your point again ? byebye cheaters xd , eme just doing their job ^^

    y8WAUd8.jpg

    Again, as has been said MANY times already, this isn't going to stop any of the actual cheaters at all. The actual exploiters/cheaters will EASILY find a way around whatever "countermeasures" EME/BHS comes up with, because let's be honest, neither have any idea what they're doing. HOWEVER, what this IS going to do is screw over the people who were using proxy for legitimate reasons like to simply have lower ping since they live farther away from the servers.
  • Din here with the nice memes, I hope, god I hope your really not that [filtered] man, half of those are meme scripts that never functioned, a large portion of them arnt even proxy related and are ahk related, outlining modules that do a certain thing, while having duplicate modules that share the same function not outlined, either memeing (which I hope you are) or actually [filtered]
  • AryixAryix ✭✭✭
    TJukuren wrote: »
    Diineve wrote: »
    Saabi wrote: »
    One of the 3rd party developers did a write up to help create a proper understanding of proxy and it's intentions. If youre interested give this a read.

    About TERA Proxy


    What is TERA Proxy?
    TERA Proxy is a packet injection framework that allows the creation and use of mods that affect the game's networking.

    Why?
    TERA Proxy was developed in response to the large number of game bugs unaddressed by Bluehole Studios (especially in regards to high latency). By providing an easy framework with which to manipulate packets, it allows players to fix some of the most severe issues themselves.

    While it can be argued this makes it easier to find and exploit vulnerabilities, we believe the benefits vastly outweigh the risks. Additionally, many applications such as Alkahest, Cheat Engine, etc. carry these same risks. In the end, it's up to individual developers to responsibly disclose bugs rather than abuse them.

    TL;DR proxy was made to fix bugs, not abuse them.

    What is Skill Prediction?
    Virtually all online games employ a technique called client-side prediction in order to reduce the effect ping has on gameplay.

    Tera's netcode was lazily designed around Korean network conditions of 10ms ping or less, and does not have prediction for anything besides player movement. This is where Skill Prediction comes in.

    Skill Prediction adds client-side prediction to skills by simulating an instant server response, effectively making them work the same regardless of whether you have 0ms ping or 500ms ping. If implemented properly, this does not cause any issues.

    How does proxy impact regular (non-proxy) players?
    Proxy + Skill Prediction enables people who live far from the servers to be able to play the game competitively and have fun. This means you'll have more friends, rivals, and people to play with in general; which is always a good thing in an MMO!

    Does proxy increase the number of cheaters?
    More players means more cheaters, and that's a simple fact. We TERA Proxy developers encourage users to play responsibly and do everything we can (within reason) to limit the spread of cheats. The rest is up to the players to report cheaters, the publishers to ban them, and the developers to fix the root issues.

    Why are some publishers against proxy?

    Simply put: They don't want to deal with it.

    Most companies would rather not rely on some unknown third-party software to keep their game operational, and that's totally understandable. However, we try to be very open with how TERA Proxy works in hopes that some of them will understand and allow (or at least ignore) it for players' benefit.

    As it is not our game, we can't give any guarantees. However we can at least convey our best intentions.

    Thanks for reading. And whether you use proxy or not, have fun!~ Pinkie Pie

    SXpXkOp.png

    your point again ? byebye cheaters xd , eme just doing their job ^^

    y8WAUd8.jpg

    Again, as has been said MANY times already, this isn't going to stop any of the actual cheaters at all. The actual exploiters/cheaters will EASILY find a way around whatever "countermeasures" EME/BHS comes up with, because let's be honest, neither have any idea what they're doing. HOWEVER, what this IS going to do is screw over the people who were using proxy for legitimate reasons like to simply have lower ping since they live farther away from the servers.

    The casual players are those actual cheaters who receive all those modules/scripts in their discord pms and share in their guild discords. It's not just people that can code that have all those modules, it's ordinary casual players that say they were using proxy JUST to lower ping but have at least 5 or 10 extra modules that they then call "QoL" but aren't really just QoL. Auto-potting isn't a QoL, it's an advantage. Dungeon guides in game aren't QoL, they're an advantage. Auto lock on isn't QoL, it's an advantage. Showing invisible things isn't QoL, it's an advantage. World Bam notifier isn't QoL, it's an advantage. None of that has an actual justification. Don't come defending ping reduction when the real reason is the other 99%. Oh, and let's not forget that some people sold scripts and mods for real money. Stop trying to cover the sun with your thumb.
  • edited October 2018
    They forgot to mention the major security flaws it has being a script running with elevated access on your machine, allowing you to add modules of any random person on github with unattended automatic updates (cali version).

    In their eyes, they don't see it (running the proxy as administrator) as a security flaw though. It's like these people have never heard of this thing called social engineering either where someone who has future ill intentions attempts to gain the trust of others, and later owns those folks to kingdom come. That is what the auto-updating proxy code and modules allows the potential for. Benevolent today but one day, kaboom. The fact there are so many who in sheep-like fashion believe these folks because of how it makes the game more playable, bears that out. I am not denying the quality of life parts. What I am saying is you really do not know the actual future intentions of some.
    ElinLove wrote: »
    And still would not just pick his/her code as-is and implement as a thankful gift. No way in hell I would be doing something this stupid. You can't just blindly trust that an external developer fixed your product and take it as-is. Specially, since the developer itself knows it's big issues, exploitability, and the desync problem.

    This is something they should understand when these now EU-only mod developers are now warning about another group of "unknown" developers carrying on work with a forked version for NA. They claim this new proxy could cause harm to your system if there is malicious intent. The hypocrisy is obviously lost on these folks because they fail to see that this is how EME and by extension, BHS views them (an untruthworthy group of unknown 3rd party developers that could potentially cause malicious intent to their players systems).

    nZoyMry.png

    Furthermore, they also claim they will be "taking additional measures in order to protect their intellectual property" when it comes to SP while deflecting the hypocrisy of that to "respecting EME's decision to ban third-party software." This is an example of trying to have it both ways. The filing of the DMCA by EME was for that exact same rationale; their taking measures to protect the intellectual property of TERA. The purpose of implementing Xigncode was really just part of that process when they dropped the hammer in 2017 where they mentioned they would be looking to eliminate the use of these third party mods. Everyone knows the majority of anti-cheat software is useless when it comes to their primary function. But EME has to show good faith effort in implementing whatever measures in order to lead up to the point of taking the steps needed. Unfortunately, it came down to having file this DMCA. Now if the guy feels the DMCA takedown was illegal, he can go and file that counterclaim. His excuse that it would open himself up to a lawsuit if he does that is full of it because the counterclaim is part of the process. But he is smart enough to know that is whole thing is treading on shaky ground from a legal standpoint should push come to shove. He can go ask those individuals that are on the receiving end of the lawsuits from Epic Games that even their memeing is being used as part of the evidence to show their intent. It was "just sarcasm/a joke" does not fly in a court of law.

    It's like that other dev who supposedly sent EME a message to get back to them by next week and if not, plans to release a dupe of some sort. That is the kind of holes that BHS should have been fixing a long time ago since those kind of cheats and exploits have nothing to do with proxy. I don't know if this person even realizes writing that sort of threat borders on extortion which is a felony. Hopefully EME does not reply since the entertainment value from that would be unbelievable. It would not be a surprise if these 3rd party folks end up pushing the buttons too far and hang themselves in the process in the future. It may seem all fun/games/meme worthy until someone takes things too far.

    EME may have passed on the code to BHS who then reviewed it. What they naturally are going to have a problem with is the decryption of packets to get at key information like the opcodes that are utilized by some tools. That is where it gets into the murky waters of copyright and intellectual property violation. The Caali proxy was also logging packets to build a private server. You can reverse engineer the code to build an emulator but it still relies on non-cleanroom methods to get to proprietary elements (like the opcodes) that allows that server emulation to work with an unmodified game client.

    The fact is this is something that BHS needs to solve in their server/client code. They haven't really given fixing the holes and optimization problems a high priority at all even with Korean players complained about that. So what makes anyone think they are going to really put a huge amount of effort into that now? mEME and FailForge may have given feedback before but it probably went into a trashcan at BHS. I mean this is like standard operating procedure at these Korean development companies since these Korean games of theirs only exist outside Korea as a way to make extra money.

    Finally, I expect the same rebuttals and ad-hominem personal attacks (which is the only way a person without arguments know how to debate/rebut) about how the lack of NA proxy is damaging the player population of NA with the proof being Moongourd, LFG screenshots, Steamchart numbers. None of that addresses the things mentioned above this sentence where I am talking about the hypocrisy of these 3rd party developers. But it also explains why they are so confident with the impact this will all have on the population. Sure, a good portion of the current top players may quit or have gone off to EU. It's like these folks have a belief that there is almost no way a new crop of players could eventually fill their shoes. I have a word for this; delusional. And that is why EME nor any other publisher worth their weight will place a high degree of trust in un-sanctioned 3rd party developers and their software mods.
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