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In attempt to clear up misinformation regarding Proxy

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Comments

  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Aryix
    Auto potting is not an advantage, we literally have auto pot pets lmao
    Who even needs to use auto pot it's just 1 key press but w.e
  • VinyltailsVinyltails ✭✭✭✭
    Aryix wrote: »
    The casual players are those actual cheaters who receive all those modules/scripts in their discord pms and share in their guild discords. It's not just people that can code that have all those modules, it's ordinary casual players that say they were using proxy JUST to lower ping but have at least 5 or 10 extra modules that they then call "QoL" but aren't really just QoL. Auto-potting isn't a QoL, it's an advantage. Dungeon guides in game aren't QoL, they're an advantage. Auto lock on isn't QoL, it's an advantage. Showing invisible things isn't QoL, it's an advantage. World Bam notifier isn't QoL, it's an advantage. None of that has an actual justification. Don't come defending ping reduction when the real reason is the other 99%. Oh, and let's not forget that some people sold scripts and mods for real money. Stop trying to cover the sun with your thumb.

    Auto potting. Boi we legit have pets now

    Dungeon guides: Do you REALLY need to be handheld all the time? Also have you never asked "It would be great if i could check a guide for X dungeon in game before doing this dungeon or when im dead without having to tab out to know wtf is going on"

    Auto lockon: Boi play on 150+ ping and say that again

    Invisible things: Ok you have one point

    World bam notify: because SOMEONE can't make an alarm for them can they


    The best thing is, YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT MODS YOU USE. If you don't want to use something, then just [filtered] don't. Pick the ones you need (aka the ones that HELP you like SP and FPS improvements and QoL stuff like Auto cutscene skip and vanguard) and then go on your merry way. The more exploit related mods aren't put in public discords like Caali's since they warn not to use them or Banhammered, meaning casuals who found them have ACTIVELY searched for them and deserve what thry get
  • P2WP2W ✭✭✭
    OrangeTang wrote: »
    They forgot to mention the major security flaws it has being a script running with elevated access on your machine, allowing you to add modules of any random person on github with unattended automatic updates (cali version).

    In their eyes, they don't see it (running the proxy as administrator) as a security flaw though. It's like these people have never heard of this thing called social engineering either where someone who has future ill intentions attempts to gain the trust of others, and later owns those folks to kingdom come. That is what the auto-updating proxy code and modules allows the potential for. Benevolent today but one day, kaboom. The fact there are so many who in sheep-like fashion believe these folks because of how it makes the game more playable, bears that out. I am not denying the quality of life parts. What I am saying is you really do not know the actual future intentions of some.
    ElinLove wrote: »
    And still would not just pick his/her code as-is and implement as a thankful gift. No way in hell I would be doing something this stupid. You can't just blindly trust that an external developer fixed your product and take it as-is. Specially, since the developer itself knows it's big issues, exploitability, and the desync problem.

    This is something they should understand when these now EU-only mod developers are now warning about another group of "unknown" developers carrying on work with a forked version for NA. They claim this new proxy could cause harm to your system if there is malicious intent. The hypocrisy is obviously lost on these folks because they fail to see that this is how EME and by extension, BHS views them (an untruthworthy group of unknown 3rd party developers that could potentially cause malicious intent to their players systems).

    nZoyMry.png

    Furthermore, they also claim they will be "taking additional measures in order to protect their intellectual property" when it comes to SP while deflecting the hypocrisy of that to "respecting EME's decision to ban third-party software." This is an example of trying to have it both ways. The filing of the DMCA by EME was for that exact same rationale; their taking measures to protect the intellectual property of TERA. The purpose of implementing Xigncode was really just part of that process when they dropped the hammer in 2017 where they mentioned they would be looking to eliminate the use of these third party mods. Everyone knows the majority of anti-cheat software is useless when it comes to their primary function. But EME has to show good faith effort in implementing whatever measures in order to lead up to the point of taking the steps needed. Unfortunately, it came down to having file this DMCA. Now if the guy feels the DMCA takedown was illegal, he can go and file that counterclaim. His excuse that it would open himself up to a lawsuit if he does that is full of it because the counterclaim is part of the process. But he is smart enough to know that is whole thing is treading on shaky ground from a legal standpoint should push come to shove. He can go ask those individuals that are on the receiving end of the lawsuits from Epic Games that even their memeing is being used as part of the evidence to show their intent. It was "just sarcasm/a joke" does not fly in a court of law.

    It's like that other dev who supposedly sent EME a message to get back to them by next week and if not, plans to release a dupe of some sort. That is the kind of holes that BHS should have been fixing a long time ago since those kind of cheats and exploits have nothing to do with proxy. I don't know if this person even realizes writing that sort of threat borders on extortion which is a felony. Hopefully EME does not reply since the entertainment value from that would be unbelievable. It would not be a surprise if these 3rd party folks end up pushing the buttons too far and hang themselves in the process in the future. It may seem all fun/games/meme worthy until someone takes things too far.

    EME may have passed on the code to BHS who then reviewed it. What they naturally are going to have a problem with is the decryption of packets to get at key information like the opcodes that are utilized by some tools. That is where it gets into the murky waters of copyright and intellectual property violation. The Caali proxy was also logging packets to build a private server. You can reverse engineer the code to build an emulator but it still relies on non-cleanroom methods to get to proprietary elements (like the opcodes) that allows that server emulation to work with an unmodified game client.

    The fact is this is something that BHS needs to solve in their server/client code. They haven't really given fixing the holes and optimization problems a high priority at all even with Korean players complained about that. So what makes anyone think they are going to really put a huge amount of effort into that now? mEME and FailForge may have given feedback before but it probably went into a trashcan at BHS. I mean this is like standard operating procedure at these Korean development companies since these Korean games of theirs only exist outside Korea as a way to make extra money.

    Finally, I expect the same rebuttals and ad-hominem personal attacks (which is the only way a person without arguments know how to debate/rebut) about how the lack of NA proxy is damaging the player population of NA with the proof being Moongourd, LFG screenshots, Steamchart numbers. None of that addresses the things mentioned above this sentence where I am talking about the hypocrisy of these 3rd party developers. But it also explains why they are so confident with the impact this will all have on the population. Sure, a good portion of the current top players may quit or have gone off to EU. It's like these folks have a belief that there is almost no way a new crop of players could eventually fill their shoes. I have a word for this; delusional. And that is why EME nor any other publisher worth their weight will place a high degree of trust in un-sanctioned 3rd party developers and their software mods.

    The proxy code is opensource on github for anyone to review. So if there was anything malicious, you would have heard about it already. Have you?
    There are lots of problems with the game that BHS should have fixed but didn't. EME could have handled the situation better regarding proxy and exploiters. But DMCA the devs was definitely not the right way to do it. Sure there will be new players coming in to replace those that left. But will it be enough? It's no secret that the game's population has been steadily declining (in all regions actually). GF are probably thanking EME for sending them so many players.

    https://steamcharts.com/cmp/212740,323370
  • Vinyltails wrote: »
    Aryix wrote: »
    The casual players are those actual cheaters who receive all those modules/scripts in their discord pms and share in their guild discords. It's not just people that can code that have all those modules, it's ordinary casual players that say they were using proxy JUST to lower ping but have at least 5 or 10 extra modules that they then call "QoL" but aren't really just QoL. Auto-potting isn't a QoL, it's an advantage. Dungeon guides in game aren't QoL, they're an advantage. Auto lock on isn't QoL, it's an advantage. Showing invisible things isn't QoL, it's an advantage. World Bam notifier isn't QoL, it's an advantage. None of that has an actual justification. Don't come defending ping reduction when the real reason is the other 99%. Oh, and let's not forget that some people sold scripts and mods for real money. Stop trying to cover the sun with your thumb.

    Auto potting. Boi we legit have pets now

    Dungeon guides: Do you REALLY need to be handheld all the time? Also have you never asked "It would be great if i could check a guide for X dungeon in game before doing this dungeon or when im dead without having to tab out to know wtf is going on"

    Auto lockon: Boi play on 150+ ping and say that again

    Invisible things: Ok you have one point

    World bam notify: because SOMEONE can't make an alarm for them can they


    The best thing is, YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT MODS YOU USE. If you don't want to use something, then just [filtered] don't. Pick the ones you need (aka the ones that HELP you like SP and FPS improvements and QoL stuff like Auto cutscene skip and vanguard) and then go on your merry way. The more exploit related mods aren't put in public discords like Caali's since they warn not to use them or Banhammered, meaning casuals who found them have ACTIVELY searched for them and deserve what thry get

    Just because you don't need to be handheld all the time does not mean that the modules that provide guides aren't giving advantages.

    Calling out attacks left & right is an obvious advantage, especially when BHS obviously intended some attacks to be knowledgeable based on experience rather than outright "Hey dodge left" or "Hey dodge right".

    If you don't even know what the auto lock on module does, its an outright cheat(and this is why caali never listed it on his pages in the first place), It automatically lock ons all of your heals/attack spells without having to manually move your screen over to party members/bams, this is obviously not the intended use of the lockon feature in the first place and it is an obvious cheat, a QoL module lets you lock on faster not auto lock-on, once you do things automatically for someone, especially if its a core gameplay feature its not QoL, Removing the drunken effect from rootbeer is also claimed to be another "QoL" module but in reality, its supposed to be a risk/reward consumable and yet people are removing the risk entirely and just popping it as if its just another brooch.

    Half the people who are trying to defend Proxy in the first place are over-exaggerating the need of the other QoL modules but most importantly, don't understand that half the other modules are outright interfering with the way the game is meant to be interacted with, while BHS has certainly left the game to rot with the way they manage its development cycles, players can't just go around claiming what is right/wrong and just outright remove things that are supposed to be part of the game.

    I'm all for supporting the removal/fixing of ping-heavy skills believe me, I've played since CBT1 with 280 ping and Proxy made the game lively for me again, but I'm not for supporting people who don't look at it from both point of views, EME has indeed messed up but the proxy community has also done its damage through certain individuals.
  • P2W wrote: »
    The proxy code is opensource on github for anyone to review. So if there was anything malicious, you would have heard about it already. Have you?
    Not everyone is tech savvy let alone know how code, most people just execute whatever people share on discord without even knowing how it works.

    Even if you know this stuff, are you going review every single module to find out if there's something wrong with it?

    Cali's proxy made this worse by streamlining the update process without taking any security precautions, it takes one dev of any module on a bad mood to push an update of something like pic bellow to [filtered] up everyone.
    e02AW6M.png

    I honestly hope nothing bad happens and I also think none of the main devs have bad intentions, but the way they are handling this project right now... it's a disaster waiting to happen.
  • P2WP2W ✭✭✭
    P2W wrote: »
    The proxy code is opensource on github for anyone to review. So if there was anything malicious, you would have heard about it already. Have you?
    Not everyone is tech savvy let alone know how code, most people just execute whatever people share on discord without even knowing how it works.

    Even if you know this stuff, are you going review every single module to find out if there's something wrong with it?

    Cali's proxy made this worse by streamlining the update process without taking any security precautions, it takes one dev of any module on a bad mood to push an update of something like pic bellow to [filtered] up everyone.
    e02AW6M.png

    I honestly hope nothing bad happens and I also think none of the main devs have bad intentions, but the way they are handling this project right now... it's a disaster waiting to happen.

    Caali and the other devs have already said they are done supporting NA Tera. They want proxy to stop working in NA as requested by EME/BHS. So if someone continues to use the proxy on NA, I think their inventory should be deleted. I think they are doing EME a favor. LOL
  • edited October 2018
    P2W wrote: »
    Caali and the other devs have already said they are done supporting NA Tera. They want proxy to stop working in NA as requested by EME/BHS. So if someone continues to use the proxy on NA, I think their inventory should be deleted. I think they are doing EME a favor. LOL

    Not the point, just showing the potential danger here, this can happen on any region as long they keep the project as it is.

  • P2WP2W ✭✭✭
    P2W wrote: »
    Caali and the other devs have already said they are done supporting NA Tera. They want proxy to stop working in NA as requested by EME/BHS. So if someone continues to use the proxy on NA, I think their inventory should be deleted. I think they are doing EME a favor. LOL

    Not the point, just showing the potential danger here, this can happen on any region as long they keep the project as it is.

    No different from running an unknown exe file. Use with caution. Like I said, nothing malicious has happened (yet). These third party tools wouldn't have existed and became so popular is BHS has implemented their own SP and DPS meter. Now, the the other "QOL" modules is a different story.
  • AryixAryix ✭✭✭
    Vinyltails wrote: »
    Aryix wrote: »
    The casual players are those actual cheaters who receive all those modules/scripts in their discord pms and share in their guild discords. It's not just people that can code that have all those modules, it's ordinary casual players that say they were using proxy JUST to lower ping but have at least 5 or 10 extra modules that they then call "QoL" but aren't really just QoL. Auto-potting isn't a QoL, it's an advantage. Dungeon guides in game aren't QoL, they're an advantage. Auto lock on isn't QoL, it's an advantage. Showing invisible things isn't QoL, it's an advantage. World Bam notifier isn't QoL, it's an advantage. None of that has an actual justification. Don't come defending ping reduction when the real reason is the other 99%. Oh, and let's not forget that some people sold scripts and mods for real money. Stop trying to cover the sun with your thumb.

    Auto potting. Boi we legit have pets now

    Dungeon guides: Do you REALLY need to be handheld all the time? Also have you never asked "It would be great if i could check a guide for X dungeon in game before doing this dungeon or when im dead without having to tab out to know wtf is going on"

    Auto lockon: Boi play on 150+ ping and say that again

    Invisible things: Ok you have one point

    World bam notify: because SOMEONE can't make an alarm for them can they


    The best thing is, YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT MODS YOU USE. If you don't want to use something, then just [filtered] don't. Pick the ones you need (aka the ones that HELP you like SP and FPS improvements and QoL stuff like Auto cutscene skip and vanguard) and then go on your merry way. The more exploit related mods aren't put in public discords like Caali's since they warn not to use them or Banhammered, meaning casuals who found them have ACTIVELY searched for them and deserve what thry get

    @CornishRex as well

    Auto potting: We have pets now, but we didn't before. Meaning, it was an advantage over other players for some time. Players are supposed to watch their hp/mana to know when to pot. Meaning, anyone that had auto pot would heal without needing that extra awareness, vs a player that didn't. Evidently, advantage.

    Auto nostrum: It's part of the game to be aware whether you have buffs or not, and to pop nostrum when you need it. In pvp, it sucks because you plague/regress people and they get nostrum back again without having to press the button or without even knowing it was removed. It's part of the game to debuff someone and to lose buffs oneself, but when they auto pop this, it's an advantage because it makes your debuff useless against that and puts players without auto-nostrum at a disadvantage.

    Dungeon guides: Players don't learn dungeons anymore. That's part of the fun of the game (and any mmo), actually learning stuff. If you have a script holding your hand and literally telling you what to do, you aren't playing the game at all. There is no process to learn because there is no need to learn. Guide in game? Sure, if they made it for perhaps first 5 clears, wouldn't be against it. But it's a chat function for every single run. Oh, and I will mention here those scripts to skip dungeon mechanics as well. Bugs are bugs and not intended, but scripts and modules are 100% intentional.

    Auto lock on: It's not a simple lock on, it's a lock on scripted to work a certain way. Please read more up on the modules available for this and then understand my point.

    World bam notification: Some players spend their time going around the maps to hunt world bams. Other players have a wbam notification that tells them when it spawned and go kill it without having to go through the intentional feature of going around the world to hunt bams. I think that's a clear and obvious advantage that I didn't really need to explain but w/e.

    The heavy proxy defenses will always happen, mainly because all these features benefited the players as an individual, and everyone wants to protect that which benefited them (no one enjoys losing advantages and benefits). Like I said, if the same players that developed proxy for sp and to equalize the playing field on the ping aspect had protected their intellectual property to function just for that, it wouldn't have been a bad outcome tbh. In the end what happened was that they opened the door for everything else to be thought and spread out, and no one controlled anything other than *seriously game breaking stuff*. Not saying that sp *only and completely well done without any bugs or desync or stuff that shouldn't happen* is bad, it just isn't the only thing on the table anymore.
  • Vinyltails wrote: »
    Aryix wrote: »
    The casual players are those actual cheaters who receive all those modules/scripts in their discord pms and share in their guild discords. It's not just people that can code that have all those modules, it's ordinary casual players that say they were using proxy JUST to lower ping but have at least 5 or 10 extra modules that they then call "QoL" but aren't really just QoL. Auto-potting isn't a QoL, it's an advantage. Dungeon guides in game aren't QoL, they're an advantage. Auto lock on isn't QoL, it's an advantage. Showing invisible things isn't QoL, it's an advantage. World Bam notifier isn't QoL, it's an advantage. None of that has an actual justification. Don't come defending ping reduction when the real reason is the other 99%. Oh, and let's not forget that some people sold scripts and mods for real money. Stop trying to cover the sun with your thumb.

    Auto potting. Boi we legit have pets now

    Dungeon guides: Do you REALLY need to be handheld all the time? Also have you never asked "It would be great if i could check a guide for X dungeon in game before doing this dungeon or when im dead without having to tab out to know wtf is going on"

    Auto lockon: Boi play on 150+ ping and say that again

    Invisible things: Ok you have one point

    World bam notify: because SOMEONE can't make an alarm for them can they


    The best thing is, YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT MODS YOU USE. If you don't want to use something, then just [filtered] don't. Pick the ones you need (aka the ones that HELP you like SP and FPS improvements and QoL stuff like Auto cutscene skip and vanguard) and then go on your merry way. The more exploit related mods aren't put in public discords like Caali's since they warn not to use them or Banhammered, meaning casuals who found them have ACTIVELY searched for them and deserve what thry get

    obhtN81.jpg
    Auto lockon / auto potting UwU
  • DYLW5HFXJHDYLW5HFXJH ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    AxeI wrote: »

    Objectively speaking, yes, using 3rd party tools to alter gameplay is not okay at all. But after years of horrendous and unstable servers, no gameplay improvement from BHS, are people really truly to blame for take the game changing experience unto their own hands? I don't believe so.

    "I murdered my boyfriend because he was neglectful and kind of a screw up"

    No. [filtered] LEAVE then.

    I'll be happy to break out the screenshots of FIHM, getting top 5 party scores for crusades, or of top 5 personal scores in vault while using 80-120 ping. Just like any other game you should understand exactly when you should be doing one thing over another and compensating for your own personal ping if you want to be good, or the best. Ping is not an uncommon issue. Lack of client side to server side prediction is not uncommon. I don't want to hear the excuse of players who have 200 ping for a game that has announced several times over that it will help non NA players when it can, but support is only for NA.

    Because I chose not to use third party services, some of those scores are long buried, and I can no longer take being good at this game as a pastime, unless I also want to cheat. The reason you feel the game is dead, is from the same cause that killed the game for me, on the opposite spectrum.

    Like holy hell more than that, these scripts are not just auto-validated by the server, from SP to Memeslash, and correct me if I'm wrong here, you NEED to be exploiting, you NEED to be tricking the server, in to believing what you are sending is valid. This is a huge issue and takes this conversation from client side personal files which can be argued defensively in court very easily, to manipulating data that does no belong to you. If I were to root or jailbreak my phone, it is perfectly legal because I own this particular phone. If I need to trick HTCs server validation in to believing something I tell it in order to root my phone, well guess what, I'm not protected anymore. Furthermore, we don't even really own our characters, or anything on the server in the first place.
  • HLK76PFWXTHLK76PFWXT ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    P2W wrote: »
    The proxy code is opensource on github for anyone to review. So if there was anything malicious, you would have heard about it already. Have you?
    Not everyone is tech savvy let alone know how code, most people just execute whatever people share on discord without even knowing how it works.

    Even if you know this stuff, are you going review every single module to find out if there's something wrong with it?

    Cali's proxy made this worse by streamlining the update process without taking any security precautions, it takes one dev of any module on a bad mood to push an update of something like pic bellow to [filtered] up everyone.
    e02AW6M.png

    I honestly hope nothing bad happens and I also think none of the main devs have bad intentions, but the way they are handling this project right now... it's a disaster waiting to happen.

    Truly.. The tool that is so sharp on one side being able to improve the gameplay of so many players it seems to be as sharp on the other side and be able to ruin the gameplay of the same many players..

    There is also this ultimate "hidden" version of this sharp tool where it seems to be able to affect the PCs of the users so yeah...

    "mEME" might have saved so many from something so extremely dangerous and destructive.


    p.s. the picture says NA only but can you trust someone that "wants to have some fun"
  • DL7MMWLJ3WDL7MMWLJ3W ✭✭✭✭
    So many text. I don't know how you all do it, for a lost cause.
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