Questions about proxy, what was the conclusion to the drama now that it's the 19th?

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  • P2WP2W ✭✭✭
    HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
    hellno wrote: »
    Also a ton of players left for EU, I have been playing on EU and its honestly pretty great besides slightly higher ping. They have a TON of events, gearing is easier, LFG is pretty lit, and the custom dungeons they release are really fun. My friends and I pretty much decided to leave our fully geared characters and money because of all the pros EU has over NA. It is really nice coming out of a dungeon and feeling it was rewarding for a change.

    We have been playing around 2-3hours a day and we are already in SC +0.

    If it is so fun and rewarding then why do you guys feel the need to boast and convince others so much about it? Actually, why do you guys never talk about the prons and cons from EU but instead you act as if you have found some sort of utopia and you try so hard to convince others about it?

    I am from Europe myself and it would be great to play with 50ms and gear up theoretically "faster" since i can get "showered" with talents but that gearing up faster is only an illusion because gearing is faster only up to a certain point when gems do not play a significant role because later on it gets harder and harder to enchant making almost no difference in the end from playing on EU/NA with the exception that players on EU can gear up to a certain point and do only so much because they cannot aford anything else and especially cash shop items since the cash shop items are so much more expensive while at the same time it is so much harder to farm gold to buy them without spending real money.

    Do you want a newly released costume? mount? pet? weapon skin? etc? Then why not talk about how much you have to farm to be able to aford one on EU and how much you have to farm to be able to buy one on NA? I mean, why not talk about the fact that a bank slot costs 200k on EU while the gold talents cost 10g each and you have to farm like a zombie to get only a bank slot when on NA the same bank slot costs 20k and the gold talents cost 60g each? Then what about the elite that costs 300k or the 2.0 phoenix mount that costs 3.5mil gold on EU? Then why not talk about the fact that NA had a whole week with double enchant up to +0SC while the dungeon rewards were improved and we will also get double vanguards much more frequently than until now?

    ...

    There is also the irony that exactly the same players that want to get "showered" with talents also complain how much EU is p2w but the reason that the p2w holds such a great advantage above farming on EU is exactly because the talents have such a poor value and whoever wants to farm gold needs to work so much harder..

    p.s. this might sound weird but NA is actually more balanced than EU

    It's not an "illusion" that gearing is faster on EU because it is faster. They have frequent leveling events and the recent one they gave out free twisthard set with the entire daylight accessories and a superior brooch while NA only gave the twisthard gear with random rolls (until very recently they changed that after so many people complained about it). How many silver talent, item xp, gold, and time was saved? Spend a few days and enchant to frostmetal and you can get into all the dungeons except the HM ones. I've played casually for about 2 weeks and I'm already close to getting stormcry.

    Do costumes, skins, mounts, and pets get you into the dungeons? Can you clear 4/5 star dungeons in guardian/twisthard with a fancy costume and skin? It's true that bank slots/ character slots are more expensive in EU but there are ways to get them cheaper (veteran/founder status cd keys). Would a new player be more concerned about getting extra bank slots or gearing up the character and start enjoying the endgame content. If players afking in highwatch with their fancy costumes is tera's endgame, then yeah NA is better.

    Yes, the elite (tera club on EU) does cost about 250-300k but that's because they come with about 20 strongbox key that are worth about 80-100k if you sell them on broker. They also have double VG and the VG credits are actually have some value to it unlike here on NA. Overall, elite on EU does cost more in-game gold but I think that is because they limit the amount of vouchers people can buy (supply/demand).

    And then there are the crit mounts. It's true the crit mounts are very expensive on EU but they aren't cheap here on NA either. BUT, on EU they have a weekend login event where you can get two 4-day 1.5 crit mounts for FREE. How long would it take for someone to collect scales for the dragon (and that is if you have the minimum gear for the VG to show up)?

    NA did have a week of double enchant to stormcry +0. What good is that if you don't even have the talents to enchant and talent prices went up to 100g EACH. In EU, there are many ways to get talents and mats like Elleon Marks.

    For those that are intrersted in the differences between NA and EU, this guide did a fantastic job explaining the differences.
    https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/73935-NA-Refugee-s-Guide-to-EU-TERA/
  • If proxy is still a thing then what was the point of all of this? you are telling me that we can use proxy now? cause now that I see what proxy does I want it. I want dungeon guides, I want all the cool things I saw ppl were using. If it's ok to use it then say it, if it's not then change the darn code and lets move on.
  • tisnotmetisnotme ✭✭✭✭
    TheDarkWan wrote: »
    If proxy is still a thing then what was the point of all of this? you are telling me that we can use proxy now? cause now that I see what proxy does I want it. I want dungeon guides, I want all the cool things I saw ppl were using. If it's ok to use it then say it, if it's not then change the darn code and lets move on.

    agree so ill post this again at reply to part of our CM's posted statement
    @KitTeaCup
    To start, we’re working directly with veteran players and long-time members of EME staff to ensure we properly contextualize all of the feedback that we are passing along to the developers in order to avoid past pitfalls and process traps. So far, this has been well-received. Bluehole is responding to us with higher urgency and at a higher level than in the past; there is an active and shared interest between EME and Bluehole to find solutions for an in-game DPS meter and UI optimizations. EME is devoted to investing our own resources into building out these solutions as well.

    as I posted in the main DMCA Takedowns thread in reply to this
    tisnotme wrote: »
    I'll post here stating
    As you've said to empower the existing mod community toward sanctioned approved fixes
    If you can do that and it works and approved to help with the issues needing addressing , and even if its at a cost to purchase but not extortion prices , I my self would be more than happy to pay for it rather than utilising a VPN (which doesn't help rectify my high ping issues)
    And I fell others would be more than happy to support a like wise situation as well helping to support the development needed in a way
  • PartyblastPartyblast ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
    Then why not talk about the fact that NA had a whole week with double enchant up to +0SC while the dungeon rewards were improved and we will also get double vanguards much more frequently than until now?

    EME hosting a random double VG "event" isn't even a pro point since it used to be a permanent feature on NA until it started going downhill. Also still lacking 100% keen mote drop on IoD after the removal of perm double VGs, seemsgreat.
  • Partyblast wrote: »
    HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
    Then why not talk about the fact that NA had a whole week with double enchant up to +0SC while the dungeon rewards were improved and we will also get double vanguards much more frequently than until now?

    EME hosting a random double VG "event" isn't even a pro point since it used to be a permanent feature on NA until it started going downhill. Also still lacking 100% keen mote drop on IoD after the removal of perm double VGs, seemsgreat.

    But that was when we had zero as in ZERO events whatsoever and to be honest i like present situation a bit more because we can get increased vanguard rewards depending on every weeek ( rewards/item experience/gold/reputation/etc ).. but also get other events mixed in the scenario. The double rewards cycle was also improved and from now on we will get it every three weeks which is pretty good..
  • Spend a few days and enchant to frostmetal and you can get into all the dungeons except the HM ones. I've played casually for about 2 weeks and I'm already close to getting stormcry.

    Do costumes, skins, mounts, and pets get you into the dungeons? Can you clear 4/5 star dungeons in guardian/twisthard with a fancy costume and skin? It's true that bank slots/ character slots are more expensive in EU but there are ways to get them cheaper (veteran/founder status cd keys). Would a new player be more concerned about getting extra bank slots or gearing up the character and start enjoying the endgame content. If players afking in highwatch with their fancy costumes is tera's endgame, then yeah NA is better.


    I have noticed that you were talking about 4/5star dungeons when playing casually and enchanting frostmetal getting close to stormcry and being able to do most ALL the dungeons except the HM ones? Are you telling me that there are players on EU willing to carry at 439 dungeons the undergeared and casual players ( you might be experienced but we are talking about being casual and acquiring gear here as a whole ) that are close to stormcry in two weeks and most likely lacking experience probably not even knowing their skill rotation or boss mechanics? Because you might have fun enjoying your casual game and going in a queue spree over instance matching since you have the item level required but the players that will form the party for the 439 dungeons will not most likely see you as luggage that needs to be carried? And even if they are willing to carry then does not mean that the whole argument is flawed because your casual character is being actually carried by others and then your gear and experience become less relevant? Unless all the players that are in queue also reached the stage of "spend a few days and enchant to frostmetal being close to getting stormcry" most likely ignoring aspects such as skill rotation or boss mechanics and at that point there is a wipe fest at all the 439 dungeons with everyone blaming each other? Then? Rushing the game and getting gear so much faster up to +0SC is really improving the PvE experience ( the funny thing is that i see the casual players that you are talking about failing at the first bosses of KC/RG not knowing why they died at the first boss and yet you talk as if they can fit into 439 dungeons only because they can gear up faster up to a certain point when even the last boss from KDNM is hard for them ). Also, this actually reminds me of this other thread where someone rushed the game and then went to do the 439 dungeons eventually uninstalling because the game was too hard not knowing what killed him multiple times at the first boss of each dungeon.

    As a comparation: It is possible to farm casually a few days and buy +0FM gear from the broker or even farm for a while longer and buy +15DW ( +2SC ) gear on NA as a casual player so anyone can buy that then yolo dungeons skipping entirely the gear progression plus any class experience that might come with it.



    Anyway, i do have to agree that EU has some nice things such as better events or the Elleon Marks as prime examples but there are prons and cons over there as well while on NA it seems that things are slowly catching up ( hopefully, we will see better dungeon rewards over time on NA and with that we will also see more talents supplies but not enough to reach the exaggerated stage where the golden talents would cost 10g each ).


    p.s. the proxy issue should have been tackled in a much different way by En Masse but maybe it is not too late to solve it
  • P2WP2W ✭✭✭
    HLK76PFWXT wrote: »
    Spend a few days and enchant to frostmetal and you can get into all the dungeons except the HM ones. I've played casually for about 2 weeks and I'm already close to getting stormcry.

    Do costumes, skins, mounts, and pets get you into the dungeons? Can you clear 4/5 star dungeons in guardian/twisthard with a fancy costume and skin? It's true that bank slots/ character slots are more expensive in EU but there are ways to get them cheaper (veteran/founder status cd keys). Would a new player be more concerned about getting extra bank slots or gearing up the character and start enjoying the endgame content. If players afking in highwatch with their fancy costumes is tera's endgame, then yeah NA is better.


    I have noticed that you were talking about 4/5star dungeons when playing casually and enchanting frostmetal getting close to stormcry and being able to do most ALL the dungeons except the HM ones? Are you telling me that there are players on EU willing to carry at 439 dungeons the undergeared and casual players ( you might be experienced but we are talking about being casual and acquiring gear here as a whole ) that are close to stormcry in two weeks and most likely lacking experience probably not even knowing their skill rotation or boss mechanics? Because you might have fun enjoying your casual game and going in a queue spree over instance matching since you have the item level required but the players that will form the party for the 439 dungeons will not most likely see you as luggage that needs to be carried? And even if they are willing to carry then does not mean that the whole argument is flawed because your casual character is being actually carried by others and then your gear and experience become less relevant? Unless all the players that are in queue also reached the stage of "spend a few days and enchant to frostmetal being close to getting stormcry" most likely ignoring aspects such as skill rotation or boss mechanics and at that point there is a wipe fest at all the 439 dungeons with everyone blaming each other? Then? Rushing the game and getting gear so much faster up to +0SC is really improving the PvE experience ( the funny thing is that i see the casual players that you are talking about failing at the first bosses of KC/RG not knowing why they died at the first boss and yet you talk as if they can fit into 439 dungeons only because they can gear up faster up to a certain point when even the last boss from KDNM is hard for them ). Also, this actually reminds me of this other thread where someone rushed the game and then went to do the 439 dungeons eventually uninstalling because the game was too hard not knowing what killed him multiple times at the first boss of each dungeon.

    As a comparation: It is possible to farm casually a few days and buy +0FM gear from the broker or even farm for a while longer and buy +15DW ( +2SC ) gear on NA as a casual player so anyone can buy that then yolo dungeons skipping entirely the gear progression plus any class experience that might come with it.



    Anyway, i do have to agree that EU has some nice things such as better events or the Elleon Marks as prime examples but there are prons and cons over there as well while on NA it seems that things are slowly catching up ( hopefully, we will see better dungeon rewards over time on NA and with that we will also see more talents supplies but not enough to reach the exaggerated stage where the golden talents would cost 10g each ).


    p.s. the proxy issue should have been tackled in a much different way by En Masse but maybe it is not too late to solve it

    There are going to be new players and experienced players, regardless of region. So you are justifying that new players need to grind for months to get to frostmetal. And that they can only play 431 dungeons during this time. Who are you to determine which dungeons they can or cannot play? If the 439+ dungeons are too difficult for them, they can continue to play 431 dungeons. Or they can read/watch some dungeons tutorials and actually learn the dungeon. The point is you let the players decide that. Or maybe this game just isn't the right mmo for this player.

    The whole proxy/meter/dmca incident drove off some of the most experienced players and new players are still struggling to gear up to play relevant content. And you wonder why NA tera is in the state is is in right now.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    P2W wrote: »

    There are going to be new players and experienced players, regardless of region. So you are justifying that new players need to grind for months to get to frostmetal. And that they can only play 431 dungeons during this time. Who are you to determine which dungeons they can or cannot play? If the 439+ dungeons are too difficult for them, they can continue to play 431 dungeons. Or they can read/watch some dungeons tutorials and actually learn the dungeon. The point is you let the players decide that. Or maybe this game just isn't the right mmo for this player.

    The whole proxy/meter/dmca incident drove off some of the most experienced players and new players are still struggling to gear up to play relevant content. And you wonder why NA tera is in the state is is in right now.

    Uh. Nobody outside of the i-level numbers and the players with those numbers themselves can say who enters what dungeon. You wipe? You learn and try again. You find toxic people? You remove such people from your life and move on. Easier said than done in some cases, but still possible. As for needing months to get FM? Maybe for a casual like me (my current max character is TH +1 kek). But I doubt any dedicated newbie with full intention on improving and becoming hardcore will have much trouble getting to FM, and I'm sure in much less than a month. Gearing slows down from FM and up from what I gather. By then, your character is already 439+ and at least from an i-level standpoint, able to enter those dungeons. Performance in such dungeons depends on the player and those he chooses to play with.

    People left because of the 3rd party issue? Sad indeed. But the game is still here. Hopefully we will get others filling up those spots eventually.
  • CornishRexCornishRex ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fellow EU refugee here, just to give you guys another perspective on how things are and maybe (hopefully not) annoy some of you even further.
    I play this game a lot. Most of my daily free time when I'm not at uni or watching random tv shows gets spent on tera. Let me compare a few things.

    Back in May I decided to gear a warrior from scratch on NA. I fell in love with the class and started gearing a dps since my +9 sc priest couldn't get into any AAH runs because ch was dead as hell and there were too many healers. So there I was, a person with like 4 characters with well enchanted sc, a person that spent years playing in the NA region and always bought elite with ingame gold, gearing a character. Since I would always spend most of my gold on costumes and cosmetics I didn't have large amounts of it to enchant gear without xp and power through it so I went down the slow road, aka I gathered xp normally. At this point in the game I was way too burnt out to farm iod all day, I only did low tier iod like maybe once a week and I was mostly doing fwc on and off to get some golden talents - so those were my only sources of them. Fast forward 3 months and I only have a +7 sc weap and like +4 sc chest/boots/gloves with daylight. I wasn't solely focusing on my warrior, I kind of split my playtime like half warrior half priest so I was stuck gathering xp for a few times before enchanting but +7 was my stopping point. Then I switched to EU.

    Early September I started out on EU. I already played briefly in 2016 so I had a warrior and a priest at 65. I geared both of them in twist and I bought myself a founders key for the elite, 4 bank slots and 8 char slots for an easier start. Fast forward a month. Warrior is in +8 sc weapon and +4 chest/gloves/boots (so close to 453!!!), priest is in early sc. The only bottleneck so far has been pp. I can't gear because I don't want to spend gold on crafters cures. I buy them with my vg points. It's insane how fast gearing is here. I basically started from scratch.

    EU has p2w items in their cash shop, yes. But they balance it out by making everything much more easily obtainable ingame. NA however? They have p2w items as well! Yet they are still reluctant to give their players an easier chance to gear ingame.
  • Forgive me for my ignorance in this topic but, does this mean that damage meters still don't work?
  • TheDarkWan wrote: »
    If proxy is still a thing then what was the point of all of this? you are telling me that we can use proxy now? cause now that I see what proxy does I want it. I want dungeon guides, I want all the cool things I saw ppl were using. If it's ok to use it then say it, if it's not then change the darn code and lets move on.

    EME reverted their stance on proxy, damage meters, and other 3rd party tools back to how things were before the DMCA takedowns, which is "as long as you don't cheat or get reported, we'll turn a blind eye."

    However, besides the EU migration and the loss of goodwill that people have talked about extensively already, there is a major difference now, namely that all well known and respected third-party devs stopped supporting NA in order to avoid potential further legal complications. If they were to just reinstate NA support in their programs, that'd be legally equivalent to ignoring the DMCA takedowns because EME did not - and probably cannot - go back on them. Them ditching NA is not something they did purely out of spite against EME, even though that probably played a role as well.

    In my opinion this makes the matter even worse, because there are no longer the large "distribution centers" for proxy, maintained by well trusted developers who emphasized their stance against any kind of cheat/exploit by aggressively banning people asking for or sharing them. Instead, it's not unlikely that some shady folks will try to bring back proxy themselves. This will not only endanger proxy users - EME's customers - because proxy requires admin access to run and there will be countless players desperate enough to just blindly trust those shady figures who could potentially take over their systems entirely, but it will also harm the game itself more. There's no guarantee that the people trying to reinstate NA proxy will have the same anti-cheating policy as the original devs.

    So in conclusion, the takedowns caused loss for everyone without any kind of gain.
  • @EOKU7LXO7P9NAOJB thanks for the info, that cleared out a lot of questions that I was wondering about. As for EME's stand I honestly can't blame them entirely, from what I saw when I researched proxy on my own, it is a very dangerous game breaking features, like costume modding and location teleport and most dangerous was and probably one of the biggest reasons that this became a thing in the first place is the memeslash and emporium points exploit. Honestly it went too far and it was wrong to think EME was not going to respond. In EME's defense it would be too hard for them to track down every harmful proxy and stop it so they stopped all proxy. I personally would have done the same thing, if proxy is to come back fully EME must have some guarantees that harmful proxy or exploits will not return. I don't think most proxy users who use things like auto skill spam is going to be able to play without it and if EME can actually trust the word of those proxy makers to not abuse the game. I like proxy for dps meter and lower ping and getting rid of unnecessary animation to make the game run better, who wouldn't.
    I wish we can trust proxy makers to not abuse their mods but EME and I can't.
    I think EME is ok with dps meters and lower ping and better optimized Tera.
  • TheDarkWan wrote: »
    @EOKU7LXO7P9NAOJB thanks for the info, that cleared out a lot of questions that I was wondering about. As for EME's stand I honestly can't blame them entirely, from what I saw when I researched proxy on my own, it is a very dangerous game breaking features, like costume modding and location teleport and most dangerous was and probably one of the biggest reasons that this became a thing in the first place is the memeslash and emporium points exploit. Honestly it went too far and it was wrong to think EME was not going to respond. In EME's defense it would be too hard for them to track down every harmful proxy and stop it so they stopped all proxy. I personally would have done the same thing, if proxy is to come back fully EME must have some guarantees that harmful proxy or exploits will not return. I don't think most proxy users who use things like auto skill spam is going to be able to play without it and if EME can actually trust the word of those proxy makers to not abuse the game. I like proxy for dps meter and lower ping and getting rid of unnecessary animation to make the game run better, who wouldn't.
    I wish we can trust proxy makers to not abuse their mods but EME and I can't.
    I think EME is ok with dps meters and lower ping and better optimized Tera.

    I totally agree with the fact that proxy was/is used for cheating by a few individuals, however there are some points you seem to have missed during your research. It is important to distinguish between the third-party developer community that actually just wants to make the game better for everyone (the guys behind proxy, dps meter, etc.), and those select few that just want to watch the world burn.

    First of all, tera-proxy is just a platform for mods. By itself, it does pretty much nothing other than provide an interface for mods to hook into your game's network traffic, which can be developed by anyone with the necessary knowledge. As such, it has to be clearly distinguished from malicious/cheaty modules such as memelash.

    Major exploits such as memelash or the emporium one were in fact totally unrelated to proxy. Yes, there were proxy modules that allowed you to use them, but these exploits had been abused by cheaters for years before proxy even existed. Furthermore, it should be noted that the entire community of notable third party developers was actively working against memelash: they recorded and reported abusers to the publishers (not just EME) and banned them in their Discord servers. The exploity modules weren't made by them either. In addition to that, it should be noted that the really bad guys (gold sellers, hackers, and so on) don't rely on tera-proxy at all, they have their own private tools.

    Furthermore, the widespread abuse of such exploits occurred during the "dark ages" of proxy, when it was still new, very hard to use for non-tech savvy people, and tools like skill-prediction didn't even exist yet or were in very early stages of development. It was used by quite a few tech savvy people, and also abused for cheating by some (based on bugs/exploits they found themselves). Back then, EME didn't DMCA anything. Nowadays, however, proxy has been made far more convenient for end users. As a result, it is now used by a major percentage of the playerbase, and most of the time just for skill-prediction, fps-utils, and other tools that fix TERA's inherent flaws which BHS were unwilling/unable to fix for years. So EME stepping up now mostly impacted players who just want to play the game and are unable to without those tools.


    Regarding your comments about trusting the proxy makers: The third-party developers have time and time again tried to contact EME to report exploits they had found, and were just ignored. Despite having his stuff taken down by EME, Caali - developer of a very popular version of proxy with thousands of users - even put up an essay about the situation, giving his standpoint and advice for EME. You can read it here if you're interested. You'll see that he's one of the "good guys", as are most of his fellow developers.

    Despite being treated badly by EME time and time again, the developers still offered to maintain some "whitelisted" version of proxy in exchange for a legally binding guarantee that EME will not take further legal action against those whitelisted modules. So they did, in fact, already propose what you proposed. But EME didn't respond...
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nopi wrote: »
    I know I'll get hate for this comment, but I have to say it before my head explodes. I believe it would be best for those who moved to EU to just stop advertising it here (and thus hurting NA and EME even more, which frankly its starting to look intentional), and be happy with the decision you made and leave us here, "to rot" if you will. I know I can't command anyone to say or do anything, plus there's a right of speech, so I'm saying this as a petition or a plea.

    You know what this just reminded me of? All the talks people had about why you come to X server and not Y.

    For the uninitiated, I won't bog down the core conversation with an explanation - just look up "self-fulfilling prophecy" and it'll make more sense.

  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    SageWindu wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    I know I'll get hate for this comment, but I have to say it before my head explodes. I believe it would be best for those who moved to EU to just stop advertising it here (and thus hurting NA and EME even more, which frankly its starting to look intentional), and be happy with the decision you made and leave us here, "to rot" if you will. I know I can't command anyone to say or do anything, plus there's a right of speech, so I'm saying this as a petition or a plea.

    You know what this just reminded me of? All the talks people had about why you come to X server and not Y.

    For the uninitiated, I won't bog down the core conversation with an explanation - just look up "self-fulfilling prophecy" and it'll make more sense.

    Not sure. None of what I pleaded for happened, and I actually started to learn to accept what's going on, which is why I stopped pushing for it.
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