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So am i just not allowed to run or learn content?

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  • Cyborq wrote: »
    Some people enjoy running dungeons with people that don't know all the mechanics and don't have the best gear or the optimal skill rotations on par.

    And then are some, I think a lot of people, that don't. They just want to min/max everything and do the runs with as much rush and DPS as possible.

    And both are fine.

    The issue I find with the former group is how few there are in it and the problem with the latter one is how salty and rude those people tend to be.
    Not everyone, but it shines through when they are.

    Then there's a rainbow of people there in between.

    Wow. This is just beautiful. Brought a tear to my salty eye.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maxmilian wrote: »
    Cyborq wrote: »
    Some people enjoy running dungeons with people that don't know all the mechanics and don't have the best gear or the optimal skill rotations on par.

    And then are some, I think a lot of people, that don't. They just want to min/max everything and do the runs with as much rush and DPS as possible.

    And both are fine.

    The issue I find with the former group is how few there are in it and the problem with the latter one is how salty and rude those people tend to be.
    Not everyone, but it shines through when they are.

    Then there's a rainbow of people there in between.

    Wow. This is just beautiful. Brought a tear to my salty eye.

    Well, I can't speak of numbers, but what he said is pretty much spot on indeed. And you will find all of these kinds on IM every day..... whenever IM pops up for you, that is. I tried some IM two days ago and even getting into previously quick match 412 dungeons was a more than half an hour thing, even on the more populated hours. So gtting kicked or abandoned after half an hour of waiting may be vexing. For now, only 3 person instances are matching quickly. Guess we need more of those around.
  • Nopi wrote: »
    I tried some IM two days ago and even getting into previously quick match 412 dungeons was a more than half an hour thing, even on the more populated hours.

    I really try not to be one of those people; but this doesnt happen to me. My guild is really active and when im not on my priest and IM takes too long, i just say something and can get a group going.

    Guilds are for 1 thing in mmos; to make the game easier. If your guild isnt making your game easier in one way or another, leave the guild because theyre just a few stats and an icon over your head at that point.
  • Yea...
    Dont do 439 stuff with fm+0...
    In case u didnt realize it.. those '439 stuff' also include 'hard mode' dungeons.
    That pretty much tells u that if u wanna spam dg training, u will need the extra def to stay alive a lil bit longer.
  • What does everyone think is the best way to avoid this sort of situation?
  • JezzeusagiJezzeusagi ✭✭
    edited October 23
    @KitTeaCup

    This will a bit of a read; i implore you to read.

    Unfortunately due to the way Tera is designed, and the american mmo player mindset, where extensive pressure is placed on new players to either be there for when the new content is out or read/watch a guide x infinity and adjust faster than the players who did it day one.

    This is of course not unique to Tera itself but the american/western mindset of personal performance over the groups which is the notable and observable opposite of eastern players by comparison.

    What i speak of is from experience, from playing ff14 (mmo) on both western and eastern data centers (server holders) the difference in community and attitude is utterly staggering for the most part (sans uncommon outliers)

    Mostly, not always of course, eastern players generally use 1 to 2 methods of completing content (vs western MANY different methods generally causing players to immediately need to adjust to that groups strategy over using 1 eclipsing method or it creates arguments) but 1 thing that remains the same is their willingness to put the group before themselves, to stay and help and raise each other up.

    -This is observable not only by playing on the centers but simply looking at other korean mmo raid completion or ff14s raid completion charts where japan/china utterly destroy USA and EU and even EU is ahead, the US community (while being the LARGEST ) has the LOWEST completion rates and the HIGHEST failure/abandon rates.

    You see this in practice as their LFG is used for practice and their Duty Finder (Instance match making) is used soley for clearing never practicing

    The same concept applies to Vindictus/Warframe (china)/Soul Worker etc etc

    The western trial by fire, fly or fall and ,unfortunately, use both LFG and IM for practice if the guild/population for practice runs is thin to none as TC mentioned.

    Youll have players like TC waiting in LFG for hours and it never filling (due to.low population and lack of wanting to teach)

    BUT ALSO due to Teras LIMITED ENTRY PER DAY causing failed learning runs to also consume the players 1 (or 2 if elite) entries per day

    The player in question must now be ready to give up the potential gains from the run, stall their own progress (going against the western mindset) and be ready to buckle down and teach which again each players time/patience is limited to an arbitrary number.

    There isnt really a way to prevent this unless you either do 1 or more of 3 things other mmos have succeeded in doing

    Option 1: Reward the Teachers

    New player completion bonus:

    -What this is is a bonus reward for every skilled (5 completions) player that assists this unskilled (less than 5 completiona) which is usually, in context to Tera, hefty bonus talents (gold/silver) and Gold

    -The effect is people are more willing to tough it out and teach to get the reward that will benefit everyone, the skilled gain the bonus, the unskilled gain the experience to complete.

    Option 2: Dungeon run change

    -Remove or change the dungeon entry design, instead of on boss pull = dungeon run used, only upon killing the last boss is the run "used".

    -To avoid exploitation take all the rewards from the 1st and 2nd boss and put it all on the final boss so as to force players to be unable to exploit the change to dungeons

    Option 3: Absolvement of Faults

    -New players (unskilled) will gain a tremendous defensive buff to assist in learning the runs (on top of unlimited gold rezzes) as Tera has NUMEROUS ways to annihilate a new player, a new player aware of thus buff will get hit by something and notice that if the buff wasnt there theyd have died.

    This buff is removed upon 5 successful completions of the dungeon where the new player in question must be ALIVE at the end to count as a clear. (To avoid exploitation the bonus reward can only be doles out 5 times total per character)

    Other than those unlikely changes there isnt really a way to avoid this, it happens more often than one would think, some players will offer to teach and do learning runs but many many more will not assist new players or kick them/leave/disband (all of which tc has experienced) before even pulling the 1st boss.

    This creates an extreme reliance of the finicky nature of LFG and guilds which are never a guarantee and many times will leave new players to their own devices instead of assisting them.

    The hit to the NA population is also not really helping the situation at all either, some players will tell you its the new players fault for not learning faster or reading guides more or jumping guilds more

    But when a new player (such as TC in example) do everything players tell them to

    -make learning LFG (that apparently never filled)

    -read guides (that dont teach the muscle memory unique to each class or the subtle nuances that classes can use to dodge mechanics or maintain dps)

    -applied to guilds and they (lets be honest the ones that look like they do have the highest possibility of not only being populated but also new player friendly) DO at times require some form of the obnoxious question: "so what can you do for our company and why should we hire YOU?"

    And even when this new players hits FM and awakens their class (judging by TCs "fumbling nostrum while hitting LotW - BS which is unique to ninja awakening) players will come down on that new player telling them they shouldve tried harder

    Or as youve seen if you read the thread; players wont even READ what the new player is saying and proceed to attack/spread misinformation or rhetoric that may not apply to TC at all

    Thus you have the situation in question. A community thatll sooner hang a new player than assist them.

    Tera Design + Western mindset + Current population = problem.

    Then ofc theres things like PING doing THIS to your skills



    Lastly ,and trust me i [filtered] HATE saying this but again anecdotal evidence, the new player will have a higher chance to complete content over on EU than here.
  • Velika runs learning runs all the time. Not sure about PvP server.
  • MaxmilianMaxmilian ✭✭
    edited October 23
    KitTeaCup wrote: »
    What does everyone think is the best way to avoid this sort of situation?

    @KitTeaCup
    Get in touch with the people who run Essential Mana, and entice them to write updated guides for you, possibly feature them in a blog post or on stream. They have a discord so its extremely easy to get in touch with the writers.

    Do learning runs for low level dungeons on twitch and alternate POV between tanking, healing and dps.
    Healer POV is usually the easiest to teach on since you are just watching the tank and dps do their things anyway.

    You need to not be dying or just idly walking around like you do in most streams so if you cant do it, give the POV to someone else. Have someone who is skilled in high level dungeons come in and do in depth shot calling runs of the introductory 431's and up.
    And by skilled, i mean people who dont need to be told their rotation is wrong at the end of the run
    Have someone come in and explain what enrage is and what it looks like, what deadly boss debuffs look like when theyre on you, what crystals are needed on who, buffs that should be used pre fight (nostrums prime solution etc), things that noobs wouldnt know unless someone told them. Do wipe runs on purpose where you go into detail about what exact mechanic will wipe you and why and how to avoid it.

    We need in depth breakdowns of dungeons and mechanics that are sponsored and distributed by eme. The videos could be lifted from twitch and even edited and put on an eme official youtube channel. Touch bases with the real top tier players of Tera, not just gear carried weak sauce.
    Twitch is a tool that could be used for more than just mindless bumbling for 2 and a half hours.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    @KitTeaCup
    I'd say that looking for ways to make the pros feel they are not wasting their time on newbies would be a good start. One option would be to throw actual learning run dungeons. These do the exact same as their regular counterpart, but they give no expensive rewards (maybe just pots and some pocket change gold), but they also do not consume your tries per day, so anyone can enter and practice them to their heart's content. A pro could do all their daily stuff, then hang back running with newbies.

    Another thing, we can get registered mentors who need to keep their mentor status monthly through the new commend system. This way, players will know the mentors they see are active. Give these players mentor related perks, like small boosts in combat when playing in a dungeon with unskilled players.

    I don't agree with making dungeons easier to newbies. As in, if there are one shot mechs, these should apply to everyone. Maybe, use screen filling messages and stronger visual cues to alert people when they are in danger, like a notice when standing in DoT puddles or a notice with a prompt for an i-frame skill when an impeding hard attack is about ti launch, like BnS does on normal difficulty dungeons. These things can then be made editable when skilled in the dungeon, through a small "use danger messages" check box when queuing or a "use danger messages for skilled dungeons" in options.

    These are just a few ideas that come to my mind to tr and help connecting pros with newbies. Since this is one of the most important things the game needs right now.
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭
    KitTeaCup wrote: »
    What does everyone think is the best way to avoid this sort of situation?

    Is it possible to make some sort of Practice voucher that allows people to do a low-risk version of the dungeon but with greatly diminished (or no) rewards - e.g. only 1 talent and like 10 gear XP? Put them in the Vanguard shop like with those scrolls that give access to Ghilieglade. The people who want to learn the dungeon can do so comfortably while also giving incentive to try the normal version thanks to the massive downgrade in rewards (or complete lack thereof). The people looking to speedrun will now have a larger pool of players to pick from and can get more jollies faster. Everyone's happy.

    Mind, I'm not talking about something like Kalivan's Challenge. I mean something more akin to the "Human" and "Demon Hunter" difficulties in the Devil May Cry games (enemy layout and attacks are the same, but you take less damage in Human mode).

    Failing that, I agree with @Jezzeusagi in that the entry system either needs to be reworked or removed. And with the current reset scrolls, just spamming those isn't an option (though to be fair, I still have nightmares about my own escapades with those back in the Crusades, but I digress).
  • CezzareCezzare ✭✭✭
    KitTeaCup wrote: »
    What does everyone think is the best way to avoid this sort of situation?

    Enhanced mentoring systems, as many here suggested, might a be good approach. The idea of moving the dungeon loot to the last boss and having the daily entries to be consumed only after the last boss dies sounds interesting too. Also opening loot-less versions of some of the hard mode dungeons, with no daily entry limits, could be useful for learning.

    Of course, the above suggestions might need implementation from BHS, but on EME's side maybe streaming "turorial runs" is a good option. You could also add rewards fot the friendship system.

    In general, having basic guides about classes and dungeons in the game's site and spamming the links in social media from time to time could help in the long run, of course, the staff would need to compromise and keep them updated as much as possible.
  • SageWinduSageWindu High Seat of the Jedi Council ✭✭✭✭
    @KitTeaCup and anyone else

    I just thought of something else.

    So, when the Blazblue series of fighting games first released, the limited edition included a DVD put together by top players that gave in-depth analyses of the characters, replete with pros, cons, combos, and various tricks that could give one an advantage in matches. Could you and the other managers try to see if you can have some players create similar videos but pertaining to TERA and its various intricacies? Here a few ideas that I can think of for the various people to put in their videos (assuming these don't exist already):

    - Class analyses, further broken down by race (if anyone cares about that)
    - dungeon description and analysis with enemy skill demonstrations that show wind-up, on-hit results, and how to avoid specific attacks
    - advanced tactics including class synergy and party makeups
    - and so on

    Yes, there is Essential Mana, but not everyone benefits from those type of guides (not to mention some of the information doesn't benefit "younger" players). For the more visual and audio learners, videos like this may be a great help and might even alleviate the current dichotomy between "hardcore" and "casual" players. The casual players get more and better aid, the hardcore players eventually have more people that know what the hell they're doing.

    Thoughts?
  • XristosxXristosx ✭✭✭
    SageWindu wrote: »

    Yes, there is Essential Mana, but not everyone benefits from those type of guides (not to mention some of the information doesn't benefit "younger" players). For the more visual and audio learners, videos like this may be a great help and might even alleviate the current dichotomy between "hardcore" and "casual" players. The casual players get more and better aid, the hardcore players eventually have more people that know what the hell they're doing.

    Essential mana does do visual stuff, most decent guides on there have visual pictures, gifs and videos of attacks bosses do with explanations of the mechanic as well. so i'm not sure what you mean.
  • @KitTeaCup

    I think one of the biggest issues with the current state of game for this scenario is that the learning curve for the game is pretty steep. From lvl 1-64 its like a walk in the park and then once you hit 65 the difficulty for newer players is exponential. When leveling people are not aware really of what an i-frame is because they simply don't need to, nothing 1 shots you in early dungeons.

    Secondly would be avatar weapons are constructive for older players to level up quickly but destructive to newer players on the long run because of the skewed perception of dmg and/or crits in the game. You can get by with doing any sort of "rotation" with an avatar weapon since there is no "dps check" or any sort of balancing. Introduction to crystals are also pretty poorly done. You just open a box and tah-dah! free xtals you slap on without actually taking a look at what is right or wrong. Theres also no reference to know whether or not the player is doing well or poorly throughout their entire time fighting.

    The game also has no tutorial for glyphs either. Everyone can click that recommended button but do people know about master glyphs or uncommon glyphs? Is the recommended button even optimal for said class? The way that new people learn the game is simply they spam dungeons with their fancy glowing avatar weapons hitting the boss in any direction from front, side to the back sometimes, healers spam healing because there is no real introduction to debuffing the boss. Or the new players spam kumas and get massive amounts of exp and are left more clueless because they got more skills and less time actually applying them.

    Then at the end of the day people come to the mindset that gear is the key to being "good" which is a mixed bag. Sure higher gear is higher perception of you knowing what you are doing. But there is no amount of gear that can save players from 1 shot mechanics or older players from flaming when they never got to learn the foundation at the start.
  • SageWindu wrote: »
    @KitTeaCup and anyone else

    I just thought of something else.

    So, when the Blazblue series of fighting games first released, the limited edition included a DVD put together by top players that gave in-depth analyses of the characters, replete with pros, cons, combos, and various tricks that could give one an advantage in matches. Could you and the other managers try to see if you can have some players create similar videos but pertaining to TERA and its various intricacies? Here a few ideas that I can think of for the various people to put in their videos (assuming these don't exist already):

    - Class analyses, further broken down by race (if anyone cares about that)
    - dungeon description and analysis with enemy skill demonstrations that show wind-up, on-hit results, and how to avoid specific attacks
    - advanced tactics including class synergy and party makeups
    - and so on

    Yes, there is Essential Mana, but not everyone benefits from those type of guides (not to mention some of the information doesn't benefit "younger" players). For the more visual and audio learners, videos like this may be a great help and might even alleviate the current dichotomy between "hardcore" and "casual" players. The casual players get more and better aid, the hardcore players eventually have more people that know what the hell they're doing.

    Thoughts?
    This is essentially a repost of what i said. Good idea though.
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