Force newbies to learn the basics instead of being a burden to others

allofspaceandtime · June 2016

I remember running them without green crystals myself. matter of fact, ive ran dungeons with just the % attack and % defence from monsters and then right before the boss switch over to the boss crystals and was just fine. I ran with a guild that the members were telling me I had to have this one or that crystal that they are using and had to get revived way more times than me. that was back when you couldn't really solo bams. if you get the chance to run the dungeons so that you can learn the mechanics then you don't even need any crystals at all. when people say things like you have to have this or have to do that, then yeah, they come off as being elitist. I think if people don't listen to advice , while running with a party, the next time should be kicked. but sometimes when people tell someone what to do, they do it in a butthole kind of way, cursing at them and everything. there are right ways and wrong ways to inform or talk to people. sadly most use the wrong way.

Tiana · June 2016

I'm unsure if anyone mentioned this- but they need to bring back the little 'quick run' that they use to have when the game first started. You were a high level and had to help some shipwrecked members (I believe this was it?). You were able to see what your class was going to be like before you even got to start on the Island of Dawn!
They should do this. Bring it back. Make it a little longer to where it FORCES (Yes. You can't skip) a player to play a bit of that class and understand what all skills they will learn and how the class is played.

Kertain · June 2016

I remember that "quick run", the story was something "A new Island showed up and you were with Elleon's first expedition to check what existed there" then you faced a boss monster together with Elleon and a bunch of soldiers and you would end up being owned by karascha, but if I remember correctly you were not at max lvl, you were something like lvl 20 or 30 so you could indeed have a taste of what the class was like, but you could skip this back then because it was considered a tutorial and like in every game you can skip the tutorials.

Although I don't think yours is a bad idea, I think they won't do it because Starting Islands are the tutorials now, it wouldn't go along with the new storyline and they won't bother coming up with a new intro for the new storyline. If they thought it was good they wouldn't have removed it in the first place right :S

Side note the Karascha on the end of old Island of Dawn was much harder than the basilisk Argon boss of the new island, so they are clearly trying to make the game noobproof, if ppl are still having a hard time then I fear for the future.

Haloist · June 2016

Kertain wrote: »

Haloist wrote: »

To further illustrate my point, just look at it from a different point of view.
If everyone were to be like said newbie and come into the dungeon with trash crystals, would it benefit anyone?
Would anyone be able to learn anything about the dungeon if they kept on dying to attacks that shouldn't kill them if they were in proper crystals

And this is the proof of what i was saying, when i started playing green crystals didnt even exist, and you were taught right at the start by other player of the simple fact that: "if you are getting hit, you aren't playing this game properly", so saying a crystal should protect you from dieing is the wrong way to play this game and relying on gear instead of skill; shield mechanics precede another mechanic that as far as i remember is avoidable, there are always ways of surviving if you mess up and even those methods are told in guides.

If noone answers you either the other pt is all on skype and you can either try to follow along being that 3 of them may be teaching a new player or 1 of them is teaching 3 new players, or leave; if it's just one not answering and refusing to learn im pretty sure the other members of your party will agree with a kick vote, so once again from my point of view you are just qqing

First of all, if those ppl were newbies they are gonna get hit. I am saying that if you use proper crystals, that is the BASELINE where you will be the LEAST LIKELY to die/take the LEAST AMOUNT OF DMG possible when you make a mistake. I am NOT saying that wearing proper crystals will protect you from dying completely, in case you didn't get the gist of my posts up till now.

Second, you're oversimplifying the "if that player is not answering, others will agree on a kick vote" part.
1) Not everyone wants to waste 2mins waiting to initiate a vote kick after combat.
2) Not everyone bothers to kick a trash player even when i explicitly call it out. Why? Cos they know that even if they don't kic, those who wanted to kick would have no choice but to carry said trash player or risk a 15min matching lockout by leaving the party.
And I will repeat here that it doesn't make sense to punish ppl who learn to do things right (please see above posts if you still haven't got this message yet).
3) There could also be other reasons - which even I cannot fathom - why ppl do not accept those vote kicks since the other players also do not speak in chat and just keep rejecting the vote (saying this from personal experience). In the end, I still have no choice but to carry the team or risk a stupid 15min lockout.

And then I'm sure some guys are gonna rebut point no.1 saying "Don't go into combat then". Guess what? Ppl like to go running off starting combat before you can even do anything. Guess I should leave the party then. OOPS! Leaving the party now will cause me to lose the dungeon entry cos combat was started. And now I'M getting punished for something that isn't my fault (again see above posts on how I despise this nonsense).

Third, how does green crystals even affect the argument? I didn't even mention green crystals in my posts, cos I am only focused on the BASICS here.

Last of all, do you even realise why I am posting here at all? From all your counter-arguments, what I see is letting the trash players get away scot-free and continue to not improve/ruin other ppl's game, while players who are actually learning continue getting punished (be it getting matching lockout, taking forever to clear the dungeon etc.) for using a system that is supposed to encourage dungeon-play since it spans across servers.
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but generally it's ppl like you who are contributing to the decrease of the quality of players in the game, since this kind of attitude is what allows trash players to get REWARDED (and continue being trash players) for playing bad, while proper players get PUNISHED for trying to play well.
"I play like [filtered] now, but it's okay, I still get to roll for loot anyway. Heh, why improve?" -trash player
"Oh come on I'm trying my best here but this guy here just doesn't want to put in effort at all. Waste of my time!" -learning player

If the majority, if not all, of players actually like to have a community full of unskilled players, then fine, I'll just suck it up and live with it. But that is certainly not the case.
Have you ever seen LFGs with messages like "XXNM/HM N> trash (roles here)"? NO. Ppl are looking for "exp/skilled players". If I can see something is wrong with how instance matching is implemented and just let it go, cos, y'know, it's only matching, I probably won't see those players again anyway, where the hell are we gonna get more skilled players?

Games are supposed to encourage better play right? Yes.
Do you get rewarded for not clearing dungeons/losing battlegrounds? No.
Unless you truly believe that the opposite of what is stated above is how a game should be, why is the way the matching system is implemented not in sync with the common idea present in above statements?

It is time to end this stupid cycle of trash players continuing to be trash players (due to the game incentivising them to do so & punishing learning attitudes), and let them go have their own fun in their own corner instead of allowing them to trample on others'. They chose not to learn even the most basic of dungeon gameplay, so something should be done to change that attitude.

Nopi · June 2016

Sorry I didn't read everything. Strain in the eyes and all that. BUT, while the idea by the OP is meant to help, it feels too much like setting end game on rails. What I DO propose, is a pre-end game instance, like a boot camp themed place, where everyone has to go and like Grey wolf said, give people mini quests as simple as wearing and understanding what a piece of gear and crystals are, then run to another part where newbies will learn the core of the game, as in, action combat. A section that explains and forces people to run through carpets, pizzas and cage mechanics and the like. Say, complete a pizza mechanic 3 times, then go to the carpet part, the cage and so on. All this without entering a real end game dungeon. This way people will have better knowledge of what to expect in there. Similar training stages have been done in multiple single player games before, so they are not a rarity. Even this very game did it with the tank zerker section. And as for enchanting, the Lumbertown merchant had a quest for enchanting where you actually had to enchant, but that was removed. And the crafting quest can still be fished up on Velika.

Kertain · June 2016

Trash players may actually play better than you m8 but they will just [filtered] your life for their fun, it has nothing to do with "force newbies to learn the basics instead of being a burden" which is the title of your topic, what you are saying is you want to have quick runs without trash players that has nothing to do with newbies nor the title you gave to your topic.

And I talked about green crystals as an example of a gear that exists now, and through your argument of "teaching" ppl need absolutly to learn before they enter endgame, but the reality is that to begin with they were never actually necessary to the game, they are just a slight help.

Squirrl87 · June 2016

I don't really get your idea about IM crystal filter. You mean that every time I enter a new dungeon I need to switch my crystals to 'default', even iff I already figured out long time ago what works for me? You can't force anyone to learn. That's an old truth known to all parents.... You shouldn't moan about people wasting your previous time in IM matching run, there's many other option to find a group to quick run. Soon being a bad player will be a reason to ban somebody from the game...

Polob · June 2016

It seems that the people against teaching noobs have never done a dungeon themselves, you go into a dungeon that you only get 1 run of a day and then the noob (without saying first time) will blinding follow into the boss room die really soon and after a while either tell everyone they are new or they drop. Either way your 1 entry is kinda stuffed now and you either have to wait for another person to join or spend at least 20% longer in the dungeon carrying the person. If you cannot see the issue with that is fine but most people don't want to spending more time in a dungeon just because of someone who shouldn't really be there.

Now making certain crystals mandatory for dungeon runs will not teach the person how to do the dungeon, it does help yes. What needs to happen is a general set a mechanics @Nopi BRILLIANT idea, I think it would be very easy to make a solo instance were the person runs through and has to deal with trying to dodge certain mechanics and also gets explained how back crits work with different crystals and what is best for their class.

Teaching noobs is important but it needs to be done in a way that is fun and not so long and tedious. Boring tutorials can ruin a game.

Catorii · June 2016

You mean this welcome message?

...Yeah, people should totally follow that. Unless they've changed all the horribly wrong ones recently, some of these are absolutely useless. And FYI, the welcome screen doesn't load if you close the launcher. Not everyone keeps it open.

Honestly, the game does a pretty good job at showing you at least some of the crystals you should be using. It even sends you a full free set iirc, as soon as you finish the story quests on the way to 65. It's iffy for tanks unless they've changed it, though, and I haven't leveled a healer since they added that, so not sure how the healer crystals are.

The game can't really show you everything. At some point you have to expect people to actually bother to ask a simple question here and there, or look up the answer themselves on the forums or a fansite. It's kind of hard to get it so wrong when the game literally sends you crystals now. That's why I always facepalm when i still see the rare DPS using 3-4 pounding cruxes.

Kertain · June 2016

Polob wrote: »

It seems that the people against teaching noobs have never done a dungeon themselves, you go into a dungeon that you only get 1 run of a day and then the noob (without saying first time) will blinding follow into the boss room die really soon and after a while either tell everyone they are new or they drop. Either way your 1 entry is kinda stuffed now and you either have to wait for another person to join or spend at least 20% longer in the dungeon carrying the person. If you cannot see the issue with that is fine but most people don't want to spending more time in a dungeon just because of someone who shouldn't really be there.

How about you be a good pt member and ask if there's anyone new before starting the run? I usually do that when dungeons were launched in less than a week or two when the majority will be new, after that the majority won't be new and there will be no problem if someone dies or drops. Waiting for someone new depends on class and server so it can take about 10 secs which doesn't cost me at all or it can take ten or more minutes in which case i'll just think to myself "meh it's a game i'll leave because i'm not actually loosing anything", the moment you let this bother you is because you are not playing the game as you should; to enjoy yourself; and are becomming a socially useless elitist.

Just the other day i had a Brawler tank drop on us after dieing in kuma at timescape, agro landed on me a slayer, and we finished the boss without problems even when the two other dps, two ninjas, kept stepping on the pools, me and the healer were more than enough, the healer was so awesome she could do all three rings of yana alone despite not even having the ress with full stamina glyph, which acording to your logic she shouldnt be allowed to play such a dungeon because it wouldn't match your "meta".

Toires · June 2016

Crystal are the things I worry least when doing a dungeon. It doesn't really matter if a guy have a perfect set with perfect crystal arrangement if the guy instead of hitting from behind stays near the tank. (Or the tank tanking against a wall with the boss on the wall side). You cant filter that.

Adding a crystal filter will make IM last forever (it already takes ages for some dungeons). I rather take a newbie with crappy crystals or no crystals and do the dungeon in 20% more time, than not being able to do the dungeon at all because IM is not popping by being extremely picky.

If you reaaaallly need to do a super quick perfect run, use a premade party, it doesn't take that much time and works great for those who doesn't want to bother with little issues like perfect crystal sets.

In any case, if newbies do not know how to properly play is because the game itself is so easy that it not longer requires any skill at all to reach max level, and end game dungeons can be cleared without perfect gear/crystals. If I have a crappy run every two weeks, that's a lot, most of the time even with newbies with not so perfect sets it still doesn't take than a few more minutes. And the only cases when I actually lost a daily run of a dungeon due to a party member is because he or she is a little biitch that thinks he or she is perfect and the rest of the party is crap so they don't play as they should (healers not healing, tanks not tanking, dps staying idle on the side), and most of the time those players are "experienced players" with great sets and nice crystal sets.

Anivay · June 2016

I think... it would be a good idea to bring back that little separate tutorial island they used to have (the one where you are part of the "first expedition" team and they let you try out the class at lv20 with tutorial stuff). It would be good if they had various levels of tutorials that people could play to learn about the game from. Start out with some basics like 'how to dps/tank/heal', 'what consumables you should use', 'proper crystals', 'learn more about how to play your class', 'how to tackle dungeons that are new to you'. Stuff like that given gradually and replayable would be a big help I think.

Tiana · June 2016

Kertain wrote: »

I remember that "quick run", the story was something "A new Island showed up and you were with Elleon's first expedition to check what existed there" then you faced a boss monster together with Elleon and a bunch of soldiers and you would end up being owned by karascha, but if I remember correctly you were not at max lvl, you were something like lvl 20 or 30 so you could indeed have a taste of what the class was like, but you could skip this back then because it was considered a tutorial and like in every game you can skip the tutorials.

Although I don't think yours is a bad idea, I think they won't do it because Starting Islands are the tutorials now, it wouldn't go along with the new storyline and they won't bother coming up with a new intro for the new storyline. If they thought it was good they wouldn't have removed it in the first place right :S

Side note the Karascha on the end of old Island of Dawn was much harder than the basilisk Argon boss of the new island, so they are clearly trying to make the game noobproof, if ppl are still having a hard time then I fear for the future.

It's been a while hah. Sadly, I don't see the starting Island as a tutorial anymore. They could easily write it as your character having a dream (Even though we know Elins and dreaming isn't really a 100% thing for every Elin). A prophecy. A future vision. They could work it.
The Stepstone Isle is far too easy. It's not really learning your skills or learning how a party works. Not like we had on the Island of Dawn.
I could see where change would work.. But people are lazy. I started fearing for future players since Reaper.

Kertain · June 2016

Tiana wrote: »

Kertain wrote: »

I remember that "quick run", the story was something "A new Island showed up and you were with Elleon's first expedition to check what existed there" then you faced a boss monster together with Elleon and a bunch of soldiers and you would end up being owned by karascha, but if I remember correctly you were not at max lvl, you were something like lvl 20 or 30 so you could indeed have a taste of what the class was like, but you could skip this back then because it was considered a tutorial and like in every game you can skip the tutorials.

Although I don't think yours is a bad idea, I think they won't do it because Starting Islands are the tutorials now, it wouldn't go along with the new storyline and they won't bother coming up with a new intro for the new storyline. If they thought it was good they wouldn't have removed it in the first place right :S

Side note the Karascha on the end of old Island of Dawn was much harder than the basilisk Argon boss of the new island, so they are clearly trying to make the game noobproof, if ppl are still having a hard time then I fear for the future.

It's been a while hah. Sadly, I don't see the starting Island as a tutorial anymore. They could easily write it as your character having a dream (Even though we know Elins and dreaming isn't really a 100% thing for every Elin). A prophecy. A future vision. They could work it.
The Stepstone Isle is far too easy. It's not really learning your skills or learning how a party works. Not like we had on the Island of Dawn.
I could see where change would work.. But people are lazy. I started fearing for future players since Reaper.

To be honest the game was so good back then that you could do that part without instaling Tera but it only worked with 3 classes one of them was warrior i dont remember the other two.

Polob · June 2016

Kertain wrote: »

How about you be a good pt member and ask if there's anyone new before starting the run? I usually do that when dungeons were launched in less than a week or two when the majority will be new, after that the majority won't be new and there will be no problem if someone dies or drops. Waiting for someone new depends on class and server so it can take about 10 secs which doesn't cost me at all or it can take ten or more minutes in which case i'll just think to myself "meh it's a game i'll leave because i'm not actually loosing anything", the moment you let this bother you is because you are not playing the game as you should; to enjoy yourself; and are becomming a socially useless elitist.

Just the other day i had a Brawler tank drop on us after dieing in kuma at timescape, agro landed on me a slayer, and we finished the boss without problems even when the two other dps, two ninjas, kept stepping on the pools, me and the healer were more than enough, the healer was so awesome she could do all three rings of yana alone despite not even having the ress with full stamina glyph, which acording to your logic she shouldnt be allowed to play such a dungeon because it wouldn't match your "meta".

You are missing the point and only backing up the fact you need to teach noobs, what if that healer hadn't been awesome and they were noob oh that would have been to bad you would have wiped... and how much longer did you take in the end. Not everyone has all day to do 1 dungeon and when you say "your logic" make sure not to misquote people.

The whole point of teaching noobs before they start doing end game dungeons is to IMPROVE game play for EVERYONE. I seriously doubt noobs enjoy dying and failing in dungeons over and over again.

Force newbies to learn the basics instead of being a burden to others

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