Exposing the rampant kicking system of battlegrounds in the PvP community

13

Comments

  • moskumosku
    edited May 21
    Serenade wrote: »
    I can believe it.

    • Back in the days before vote kicking was a thing, we had plenty of party leaders that kicked all party members once a boss was at low health to keep rewards to themselves.
    • Back in the days of vanarchy, guilds would mass vote themselves using alts to keep their vanarch status.
    • During the noctenium wars, people quite literally cheated - feeding themselves kills, sabotaging others, or literally using game exploits - in order to get exarch status and the gold rewards that came with it.
    • In the earlier days of PvP, we had guilds mass kicking people until their friends/guildies joined the match, since public queue was faster than 15v15.
    • Skyring had all sorts of shenanigans, including people using forfeit alts to exploit ranks and kicking anyone below an artificially high rank.
    • I still remember the +12 VM-equivalent requirements on low-level dungeons, or the mass-kicking and restricting of certain classes that were perceived to be lower on the DPS scale (ABHM zerkers only 1 war).
    • Back when Kumas (the 10 normal players vs. 3 kumas thingy) was popular, and when BHS implemented draw-when-enough-people-left, you had kumas that would kick people and force a draw if they were on the cusp of losing. On an unranked "PvP" instance where losing and drawing had no difference, players would kick to force a draw just to deny the other side rewards out of spite.

    I'm sure there's half a million things from the older days of TERA that i don't even remember anymore.

    I don't see why it's anything of a surprise that people might still be doing it now. Once greed sets in, players are liable to become literal sociopaths.

    I can't, this whole thing is stupidly fabricated. Although, i can only speak from my own experience the same way op does which kinds of negate both points either way. I'm not a raid member you'd want in your team, i'm merely average at most with average gear, you'd be better letting one of your probably better skilled and geared friends join in yet, i haven't experienced any kick in the bg other than when i initially wasn't properly geared for it.

    All of this sounds false and most people that do the bg will probably agree with it being that way. Which is true however, is small groups kicking to get their friends or syncs in but, this is very rare nowadays. In the start of the new patch when SH was released this was indeed common. Today most kicks are due to not meeting gear requirements or just because someone's straight in pve gear. And yes, i completely understand that there's no real requirement for the bg but just because you can do the bg naked it doesn't make it right.

    If i had to add something is that kicking can go wrong because!...we don't have a strong population in pvp and kicking can just mean you gotta 5v7 or 6v7. So there is actually a good incentive to not kick, which partially is why sometimes lower than +6 is still accepted.
  • 73K5HJREXP wrote: »
    DISCLAIMER: I understand the rules of the forum on using direct names of others. What I show you today is a 1 month investigation I took on a not so private community of most players that regularly make up the numbers in ShoreHold. The group in question is part of a more executive sub community in one of the major PvP discords on the North American server.

    As many of you may have been on the forums, and like me, have seen many normal people getting kicked from bgs just because of the elitist system in place that is being being frequently abused going unpunished. Most of us has caught on that if you are not friends with the groups that do SH, you can easily be replaced despite having good gear(the reason you are told if you were kicked) because the people with numbers want their friend to take your spot. Some of us stopped playing and just didn't want to deal with it. Some of us decided that it is what it is and didn't mind being harassed if they can eventually get a few games. Well it is much more than that.

    Here is the bold incriminating part of this post. tl;dr The discord in question has a point system rewarding the individuals who have kicked the most at the end of each period as part of establishing a hierarchy within their society. The number of people partaking in this club is STAGGERING.

    What does this mean? For starters I infiltrated this group by approaching specific players establishing good relationships with them. The said problem in question isn't unknown, but it still took several weeks until I was given permission to participate. From what I understand, the origin of the numbers who made up this discord was from major guild leaders of the top PvP and CU guilds. From there on, they wanted to make the most out of the rewards when Fraywind Canyon was still in place, reaping the rewards of getting golden and silver talents and then distributing the accumulated wealth among the members and leaders of this group.How this is done is quite on paper. They use third party programs to manipulate the queues and somehow group all the veterans with each other and the result is that they will often face inexperienced individuals to easily dominate the game. As I have seen during my acceptance into the PvP discord, they have a point system rewarding the first person who initiate and get anyone kicked, with the actual completion of this sickening competition itself being whenever someone else from their side takes the now vacant spot.

    From the tally system they have hanging in this 300 member strong group, I can tell that some points can be as high as 180 points for each week. That means some players have KICKED MORE THAN 180 PEOPLE for this server. This clearly means that undergeared, PvE people aren't the only ones being kicked randomly, but anyone who isn't with most of the people who make up the currently ShoreHold will likely be abused by their system. The rewards for the top "scores" written by their guidelines receive a higher ranking in the sub server(there are 5 roles in hierarchy), costume skins and mount prices, and finally a very feasible amount of gold, topping 800k this month so far.

    Result: I do not think EME would accept such a system in place by specific people in Tera. This is clearly a manipulative, abusive, private 3rd party system in place and they are reaping rewards from your normal player. I would like this post to fully inform my brothers who have complained about this going on multiple times but have been ignored. I have seen many people stating that PvP as soon as the event ends, as kicking is just too big of a problem. I hope you read this and understand what is going on. I want your voice to be heard. I tried to follow guidelines with the forum rules by not listing any guild or specific names, and keeping a lot of it vague.

    I have documented many incriminating evidence and sent them to EME through ticket. However I want to also inform us, the players, of what is going on. The sad reality is that everyone want to PvP for fun, but something is not right.

    I can confirm this group exists, I was a part of it when I was active.
  • castanicpriestcastanicpriest ✭✭✭
    edited May 21
    Erazus wrote: »
    What the ... I have been PvPing since forever, I know all the people that are on all the PvP leaderboards, basically anything about Tera PvP because it is so small. I have never heard, ever, of a discord (or third-party like you said) that has 300 PEOPLE PARTICIPATING in it. That is like the entirety of the current playerbase playing PvP times 2!

    There was this guild on Tempest Reach that had so many friends on Mount Tyrannas in this another guild and used to talk in Discord about who to kick or not to kick at Fraywind for certain purposes like for example the battleground ranks for the titles and the masks ( they simply thought that some players are not worthy enough based on certain criteria and should not get top 3 so they should be kicked or anything for that purpose ). They also kicked at Sky Ring.

    This guild was also active when the new PvP gear came up with this guild simply doing exactly the same thing with some of their members even acquiring full +9PvP gear because they could decide who was going to win or not at Shore Hold ( they went as far to banish certain guilds that were winning at Civil Unrest just to try to conquer those guilds by not letting them to go past +7PVP gear ).

    It was a mess but i am glad that it is over since the PvP is no longer anything special in this game and now we simply focus on PvE..

    SageWindu wrote: »
    Apparently some of you weren't around for neither the Vanarch system nor the Crusades, where guilds were actively conspiring with each other (and becoming increasingly blatant about it with each season) to exploit the rewards therein.

    Want a PvE example? The original iteration of Kyra's Potion Shop, where people would kick others before the last boss fight to increase the chances of getting a rainbow shard (since it only went to one person in the party at the time). Now, whether or not anyone made a competition out of that, I couldn't tell you.

    This TOTALLY sounds like something some of the more unscrupulous members of the community would pull.

    OH yeah.. those awesome alliance days where players would pick extractors and drop keys to give points purposely to certain members or where they would spam alts from a portal to give kills again to certain players only to get the Exarch rank.. And we even had those that would level up characters from 1-65 since it was giving a ton of alliance points and they could eventually get exarch by leveling up a character super fast to 65 then get carried by main for quests at alliance..

    And i also remember those days where players were being kicked from Channelworks at the last boss during Kyra's shop even so that the other two friends would get more shards..





    It is unreal when you see how far some players go to get some advantage in a virtual world.....
  • SerenadeSerenade ✭✭
    edited May 22
    mosku wrote: »
    All of this sounds false and most people that do the bg will probably agree with it being that way.
    If you don't believe the stuff I said actually happened in the past, feel free to ask the other veterans posting in this thread. Heck, if the old forum archives are still up, I could point you to multiple threads complaining about each and every single bulletin I listed.

    I can't verify if the OP's claims are true or not, but it doesn't even scratch the tip of the "horrible stuff that players have done on TERA" list, and so is not nearly as unbelievable as you might think.
  • Serenade wrote: »
    mosku wrote: »
    All of this sounds false and most people that do the bg will probably agree with it being that way.
    If you don't believe the stuff I said actually happened in the past, feel free to ask the other veterans posting in this thread. Heck, if the old forum archives are still up, I could point you to multiple threads complaining about each and every single bulletin I listed.

    I can't verify if the OP's claims are true or not, but it doesn't even scratch the tip of the "horrible stuff that players have done on TERA" list, and so is not nearly as unbelievable as you might think.

    I'm talking about the present as this post claims, there's no active kicking going for unfair reasons for the most part.
  • edited May 22
    mosku wrote: »
    I'm talking about the present as this post claims, there's no active kicking going for unfair reasons for the most part.

    Even if you set aside the situation alleged in this thread, the larger issues are: 1) defining what would constitute "kicking for unfair reasons", and 2) understanding if there would actually be appropriate punishment for any "unfair" kicks.

    When the developers creating the kick system, they were probably thinking of the more obvious cases: people who are AFK, people who are being too overly toxic, people who are overtly undermining the team, etc.

    But there's another way to use the kick system: to strategically and preemptively kick people who reduce your team's chances of winning. In here we have a whole wide range of rationales, ranging from "people who aren't even in PvP gear at all" to "people whose gear isn't up to the right level" (what's the right level?) to "people who've built a bad reputation in the community and are on a community-maintained blacklist" (are the criteria fair?) and potentially even further (as the OP is claiming). Basically, all this is using the kick system as a form of "team selection," which wasn't the original intention of building the kick system in the first place. The intention of the matching system vs. the premade party system is that the first is random and the second is controlled, but now people have found ways to control the former as well (due to poor implementation).

    So anyway, all this to say... let's assume for the sake of the argument that what the OP is alleging is actually happening (I don't know if it is or not). If it were happening, would everyone agree that that's an example of "unfair kicking"? What makes it unfair, exactly? What should the punishment be to stop people from doing these kinds of unfair kicks? How do you enforce that, when a kick happens, it happens for a "fair" reason? (And, as I was alluding to above, what are the "fair" reasons for a kick? Would everyone agree to those reasons?)

    Someone could probably actually argue that there doesn't need to be "fair" reasons for kicking at all -- that if someone proposes a kick and it's accepted, that's all the criteria there needs to be. I would argue that if the situations like the OP is claiming become rampant, it would continue to hollow out the pool of PvP players and make it harder to form matches and actually enjoy PvP content... but who is to force people to think of the long-term consequences of their actions?

    Anyway, that is all a bit academic. The other angle, that is unfortunately also probably academic, would be to ask what changes BHS should make to fix this whole thing so these sort of kicks wouldn't be necessary (things like requiring minimum gear type/minimum gear level, forcing use of PvP crystals (or eliminating crystals in PvP entirely), etc.). If you could somehow make it so that people wouldn't feel the need to kick for "team selection" reasons, then maybe it would be used more for the "blatant abuse" sorts of cases it was originally designed for and more people would agree that other uses are "unfair." They could also improve the matching system to make it much harder to synchronize team queues, which would be a further barrier to prevent this problem.

    In any case, whether the OP's allegation is true or not, the whole thing is a mess that needs a serious look by the developers. Whether they'll give it the look it deserves...
  • ZoknahalZoknahal ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22
    I can vouch for @Serenade I been here since the Closed Beta, and i have seen all of the things that happened since vanarchy, specially the alliance times and the Kumas force draw.

    I can tell you that alliance in TR was really messed up, having a single person and his/her underlings monopolizing all 3 alliances and deciding who was gonna rank, and everyone who got in their way, was to be eliminated, or even bribed. People who ranked up the legit way, was hunted down to avoid them from ranking so that one of his/her underlings could get the rank and the mask.

    Another thing i was victim of, was the abuse of the kick system during dungeons. When wonderholme was a thing and they first introduced the Nightforge gear, a certain guild in TR we all know that was the source of many dramas, including the start of win trading in Skyring, invited me to a "friendly run" in wonderholme, supposed to be ffa, and they needed a tank.

    I made sure to ask if the loot was FFA, and they did told me it was. How would i had know, that once we were at last boss, right before it died, i got kicked, just so that someone else could have the loot.

    As things stand now, i believe we should worry more about the moral and ethics of the people running the PvP scheme of the game, rather than the kick system.
    mosku wrote: »
    I'm talking about the present as this post claims, there's no active kicking going for unfair reasons for the most part.

    Ohh believe me, as i said before, me and my guildmates, there are times when we do CS, and people just start random vote kicks against us. I dont know if its because of our guild, or because our ranks, nor i care, the point is, people do kick without valid reasons.

    Heck, i was accused one day of team jumping. Sucks to not be able to control which team i get into when doing CS
  • kubitoidkubitoid ✭✭✭✭✭
    its quite amazing that such things happen in f2p mmo where virtual riches of ppl doing these mentioned things dont even belong to them :lol: :lol:
  • voidyvoidy ✭✭✭✭✭
    Came in here hoping for screenshots of the discord, left disappointed. It wouldn't even be hard to provide proof while staying anonymous.
    I mean, while we're at it, I'm part of a discord that worships KTC and sees her return to the forums as Christ's second coming. I can't provide screenshots though, so you'll just have to take my word for it.
  • 73K5HJREXP73K5HJREXP ✭✭
    edited May 22
    HUGE UPDATE: As of today I have been found out and banned from that server. I also have been DDOS'd for a while as apparently one of the members has my IP, so I am currently typing in a coffee shop.

    A few respondent posters has been noted. [mod edit: removed call-out] for example is a known mascot and poster for the server and did not dispute anything, but rather only tried to make it a meme.

    You guys deserve to know that before I was gone, a few leaders came out and said they were doubling down on the actions and nothing will happen. A direct quote is - from ADMIN LEADER "Debating if we should get together to actually hard lock all randoms out of shore so they see what it would really look like."

    To respond to @counterpoint here is what I've seen their excuses have been regarding why it is happening and what to fix. From what I saw, a big sarcastic statement they repeated is that they removed premade 15 v 15 Fraywind, Corsair, and none for Shore Hold.

    Also thankfully BHS is implementing a ranked queue change and listening to us, so I believe them grouping to bully is going to be impossible if they don't have numbers. If a fix is happening then we can celebrate of the fix and their end of tyrant.

    As long as the proxy does not surpass the fix then we win. We finally win.

    Sorry for my side. I somehow do not know but my account has all character deleted and no more 65 left. This is my fault. I use proxy for high ping and now because I [filtered] wrong people I suffer consquence. But I believe post has helped us bring the change and make it better for everyone. Please do more PvP from now on my brothers because situation is changed. I am glad I have different email password and they did not log on here forum and change or delete things. Or make me say something else.

    Thank you EME for the new change and fix it help all who want to play. Without our voices nothing would have changed but now it has.

    For people that want to continue monitor what the group might be doing still, or is in the group but feel remorse. Please continue to carry on the duty and join them. You can post anonymous and fight back. I pass the torch to you. All should keep in touch with what is happening on that discord server.
  • edited May 22
    I think you probably went a bit too far weaving the tale with this one, even if the original one was already a stretch. Being DDoSed if true might hurt your ping, but it's unlikely to completely take you down or prevent you from posting on the forum. Plus, even if there were some way to delete characters via a proxy module, they'd still be subject to the 24-hour cooldown and could be undeleted from support. This is a bit like "the mob tried to take me out" and is probably just a bit too extreme drama given the current size/state of the PvP community. I did appreciate that it weaves enough bits of truth and past rumour into it that it's close to believable, though.

    That said, if they do actually make queueing improvements (assuming that part is true), that could still be a good thing. Whether the specifics are true or not, the developer should still make improvements to reduce people's need to kick people in PvP, as that'd be better for all.
  • 39HATFDXLY39HATFDXLY ✭✭
    edited May 22
    @ everyone here, come que shorehold (with or without pvp gear) pls, SH dead atm

    I have full +9 on my character and I wont kick anyone, I just want it to pop lol
  • edited May 22
    [mod edit: Removed for being a call-out.]
  • meh, to be honest not really that caring about Manifest, Ero, Yakuza, Definitive, Pig or any of the other pvp guilds that show up in Shorehold, i'd be happy if it was actually active at this hour lol

    Besides, there are alot of skilled players in Shorehold, but if you keep playing there's no reason that you can't beat them. Just use the anger towards them and kick their butts in Shorehold. They lose, you got your revenge, and shorehold is alive...everyone is happy (:

    But if im 100% honest @ the player council issue, I don't think there are any "player councils" or if there are some, they really don't hold as much sway as you think they may. I think it's more like, 1 person initiates a kick -> everyone accepts without inspecting for the most part lol
  • voidy wrote: »
    Came in here hoping for screenshots of the discord, left disappointed. It wouldn't even be hard to provide proof while staying anonymous.
    I mean, while we're at it, I'm part of a discord that worships KTC and sees her return to the forums as Christ's second coming. I can't provide screenshots though, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

    spacecats > kitteacup. If KTC is the second coming of christ, spacecats coming back to tera is like the rise of god himself gracing us with his glorious image
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