KTERA's Developer Note regarding System/UI revamp is out

Nopi · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

TWMagimay wrote: »

I've never seen a healer get kicked for using a keen charm....

This is one of the very combinations that's on the "alternate acceptable list". But what about basically every single other combination? We see posts on this forum all the time where people complain about how stupid new players are for now following the exact "good pattern" of everything prescribed in guides.

Besides this, the charm system's implementation was frustrating in the first place. If the healer wanted to use a keen charm while everyone else wanted to use something else, they had to make sure they weren't in range so that the wrong charm wouldn't impact them and only the proper charm would, or use their charm such that it doesn't overwrite everyone else. Plus, with the advent of triple charms, it put anyone who wanted to use some off combination at a significant disadvantage anyway. I suppose they could have created "Triple Charm Version B" for this one valid use case?

If that one choice is what you want to preserve because it's useful and valuable, I'm all for that, but, personally speaking, I don't think this system was very good at achieving this goal, even though it "allowed" it. There could easily be a better system that accomplishes the same thing, even if the current design as proposed does not.

For charms, we could remove the weaker random and redundant stuff (which counts as a lot of charms already) and keep just a few of the ones people use. We could then make a personal variant of the charms so healers can charm up their preferences right then and there without having to move at all after everyone else already has their charms on. These are just derp ideas on the spot, though. Prone to counter points. (did I intend that pun? >.>)

counterpoint · July 2016

Mobius1 wrote: »

Again, problems with the charm system is no excuse for gutting it. How about fixing it?

Like, making it so charms only work on yourself. Or giving you a page, like you have for glyphs, where you select what effects each charm type gives, and then make a generic charming item, that applies to you whatever charm type you had selected.

But there are already tons of other systems that do the same thing (provide boosts to specific stats) in a way that's most permanent and less finicky than charms, like crystals and stat rolls. It doesn't require resetting upon death, doesn't require standing by a campfire (or using the right type of campfire for max benefit), but still allows you to customize your stats. Why do we need so many layers upon layers of systems and consumables that all apply micro stat buffs of various kinds on-top of each other? What is the benefit of all this complexity? Why not just let people make their own build, swap their build when needed, and play the game?

Anyway, I guess I'm personally not likely to be convinced, as I've always thought the mountain of competing/redundant side-systems to provide stat buffs/boosts was needless, and I've never seen the point of stamina (since it was more of an inconvenience than an actual gold sink as gear repairing is in other games, since people never used the clerics). I do understand that not everyone will agree with me, of course, and I do understand that people dislike the general trend of "dumbing down the game."

Nopi · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

Mobius1 wrote: »

Again, problems with the charm system is no excuse for gutting it. How about fixing it?

Like, making it so charms only work on yourself. Or giving you a page, like you have for glyphs, where you select what effects each charm type gives, and then make a generic charming item, that applies to you whatever charm type you had selected.

But there are already tons of other systems that do the same thing (provide boosts to specific stats) in a way that's most permanent and less finicky than charms, like crystals and stat rolls. It doesn't require resetting upon death, doesn't require standing by a campfire (or using the right type of campfire for max benefit), but still allows you to customize your stats. Why do we need so many layers upon layers of systems and consumables that all apply micro stat buffs of various kinds on-top of each other? What is the benefit of all this complexity? Why not just let people make their own build, swap their build when needed, and play the game?

Anyway, I guess I'm personally not likely to be convinced, as I've always thought the mountain of competing/redundant side-systems to provide stat buffs/boosts was needless, and I've never seen the point of stamina (since it was more of an inconvenience than an actual gold sink as gear repairing is in other games, since people never used the clerics). I do understand that not everyone will agree with me, of course, and I do understand that people dislike the general trend of "dumbing down the game."

So long as they don't come later with gear repairing as a way to penalize death, and then start selling cash shop repair kits.... (erpp.. I said it already.. I feel someone will smite me soon for this. x.x)

Mobius1 · July 2016

The reason why, is because added complexity means added strategical potential.

If someone doesn't know the best charms for his class, and I do, then that gives me a deserved advantage over my opponent, because he had an inferior strategy.

Strategy should matter, not just player skill, in a good MMO.

counterpoint · July 2016

Nopi wrote: »

counterpoint wrote: »

Mobius1 wrote: »

Again, problems with the charm system is no excuse for gutting it. How about fixing it?

Like, making it so charms only work on yourself. Or giving you a page, like you have for glyphs, where you select what effects each charm type gives, and then make a generic charming item, that applies to you whatever charm type you had selected.

But there are already tons of other systems that do the same thing (provide boosts to specific stats) in a way that's most permanent and less finicky than charms, like crystals and stat rolls. It doesn't require resetting upon death, doesn't require standing by a campfire (or using the right type of campfire for max benefit), but still allows you to customize your stats. Why do we need so many layers upon layers of systems and consumables that all apply micro stat buffs of various kinds on-top of each other? What is the benefit of all this complexity? Why not just let people make their own build, swap their build when needed, and play the game?

Anyway, I guess I'm personally not likely to be convinced, as I've always thought the mountain of competing/redundant side-systems to provide stat buffs/boosts was needless, and I've never seen the point of stamina (since it was more of an inconvenience than an actual gold sink as gear repairing is in other games, since people never used the clerics). I do understand that not everyone will agree with me, of course, and I do understand that people dislike the general trend of "dumbing down the game."

So long as they don't come later with gear repairing as a way to penalize death, and then start selling cash shop repair kits.... (erpp.. I said it already.. I feel someone will smite me soon for this. x.x)

Okay, yeah, that I'm firmly against, no question. I mean, gear repair or some sort of gold sink penalty for death, maybe there's a logic (the game does need gold sinks), but no interfacing with the cash shop. All the other times they've done that (like Crafters Cures), I've hated it too -- in-game gold sinks are good, but letting people use the cash shop to bypass the gold sink... -_- But yeah, this is a whole other conversation. lol

Nopi · July 2016

To me, stamina acted as a sort of gear repair system anyway considering both do the same. Play the game and not your gear, but your character, degrades, so stats get lowered. Die and you see a rapid degrade. Only difference was that you could "repair" yourself for free by waiting near a camp fire or for gold from either a cleric or a pot. Too many pots and even ways to keep stamina at max or above max made clerics and public campfires nearly useless.

Now trying to understand the current predicament. I suppose the devs thought about the complexity of stamina and pretty much how it's portability (as pots) made the whole thing redundant. Charms in it's simplest form (the burnables), of course, being a sort of by-product of the stamina mechanic, needed to be addressed as well.

TWMagimay · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

This is one of the very combinations that's on the "alternate acceptable list". But what about basically every single other combination? We see posts on this forum all the time where people complain about how stupid new players are for now following the exact "good pattern" of everything prescribed in guides.

What about the other combinations? They are there for when you need them and they are not part of the actual gameplay, you have to go out of your way to get them. As for posts complaining...should we also remove crystals and gear rolls, glyphs and skills while we are at it? What kind of an argument is that...

Besides this, the charm system's implementation was frustrating in the first place. If the healer wanted to use a keen charm while everyone else wanted to use something else, they had to make sure they weren't in range so that the wrong charm wouldn't impact them and only the proper charm would, or use their charm such that it doesn't overwrite everyone else. Plus, with the advent of triple charms, it put anyone who wanted to use some off combination at a significant disadvantage anyway. I suppose they could have created "Triple Charm Version B" for this one valid use case?

The tripple charm actually fixed the frustration as you can keen yourself and then your party just has to refresh their charms. When you die, it's up to you whether you want to fire and keen or not. It's not mandatory, it's a personal choice that's being taken away because...you get frustrated because i can choose to do something extra that in no way affects you? Like, really?!

If that one choice is what you want to preserve because it's useful and valuable, I'm all for that, but, personally speaking, I don't think this system was very good at achieving this goal, even though it "allowed" it. There could easily be a better system that accomplishes the same thing, even if the current design as proposed does not.

The potential existence of a better system doesn't somehow make this system good, does it? The current system gives you a CHOICE, it's OPTIONAL. Nobody is affected by it unless they want to be affected. The mandatory stuff is very cookie-cutter and both easy to udnerstand and easy to use.

voidy · July 2016

Back when I started playing maplestory nearly a decade ago, there were a few classes with a lot of variety between them. Maps were large and varied; going from one end of the game's world to another could take hours. Then, as the years went by, Nexon simplified it. Classes that were once about using multiple skills in clever ways are now all about spamming a single skill, or maybe two skills if you're lucky. Teleportals were introduced, effectively destroying the old system of travel that forced players to ride a single airship together.

Now Nexon is, in some ways, in charge of Tera. I'm not entirely clear on their relationship to BHS, but their name is slapped next to the game now and that certainly means something. And what do I see? Devs discouraging group activities and choice/exploration in favor of streamlining, while massively dumbing down the content. The same things Nexon did to the last game I enjoyed. I really hope it's just a coincidence.

counterpoint · July 2016

TWMagimay wrote: »

What about the other combinations? They are there for when you need them and they are not part of the actual gameplay, you have to go out of your way to get them. As for posts complaining...should we also remove crystals and gear rolls, glyphs and skills while we are at it? What kind of an argument is that...

My argument is that the multiple layers of redundant buff systems should be consolidated to less layers. Given that you already do have crystals, gear rolls, and glyphs, why do we need charms and multiple tiers of overlapping consumables on top of this? As long as it can achieve the same net effect, I'm in favor of consolidating all of the in-game systems down to a much smaller number that provides flexibility and control with minimal complexity.

TWMagimay wrote: »

The tripple charm actually fixed the frustration as you can keen yourself and then your party just has to refresh their charms. When you die, it's up to you whether you want to fire and keen or not. It's not mandatory, it's a personal choice that's being taken away because...you get frustrated because i can choose to do something extra that in no way affects you? Like, really?!

You're using a single use case to justify the whole system. The system being there affects everyone as it's one more thing everyone who plays the game needs to learn and consider while they play, and this system is added on top of a whole bunch of other systems that do affect everyone for the next reason...

TWMagimay wrote: »

The potential existence of a better system doesn't somehow make this system good, does it? The current system gives you a CHOICE, it's OPTIONAL. Nobody is affected by it unless they want to be affected. The mandatory stuff is very cookie-cutter and both easy to udnerstand and easy to use.

I don't see it that way. Just go and read a class guide for the large amount of layered systems you're expected to know to be effective in this game. Even though you may call it "optional", in practice knowing and practicing all this is anything but optional in order for most people to be accepted into parties. And again, my belief is that consolidating the layers of redundant buff/customization systems is a net benefit to the game. It's totally possible to accomplish the same goals in a much more streamlined way.

But anyway, as I said, I understand that not everyone will agree with my preference, and many will like things better the way they currently are or see no reason for the change. I just personally am not lamenting these particular changes on the whole.

TWMagimay · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

My argument is that the multiple layers of redundant buff systems should be consolidated to less layers. Given that you already do have crystals, gear rolls, and glyphs, why do we need charms and multiple tiers of overlapping consumables on top of this? As long as it can achieve the same net effect, I'm in favor of consolidating all of the in-game systems down to a much smaller number that provides flexibility and control with minimal complexity.

There's simplifying and then there's mindlessly hacking parts off.

You're using a single use case to justify the whole system. The system being there affects everyone as it's one more thing everyone who plays the game needs to learn and consider while they play, and this system is added on top of a whole bunch of other systems that do affect everyone for the next reason...

Would you like some more examples? OK, here you go:
Warding scrolls as a way to increase your hp pool or save yourself in certain situations(if you want specifics: I can tank non-enraged 2nd circle on Imperator if I have a warding scrolls on which allows me to resu smb, blink out of the first circle and still not die if CR is on cooldown).
Heaven Elixir as a stat boost that you can have on all the time without having to burn other consumables.
Mirror and Unyeilding charms in PvP.
Extra stats from having more than 120 stamina.
Dash Scrolls for those times you are just a little too far to make it on your own.
Crit power scrolls for those times BHS decides to implement OP solo content and expects healers to also solo it.

I don't see it that way. Just go and read a class guide for the large amount of layered systems you're expected to know to be effective in this game.

You know what. I actually did. I've been looking for a refresher course on how2sorc(see what changed since last time I played). I read Yosha's guide and it's basically 90% cookie cutter. I'm not sure how dumb you think players are(or should be) but this stuff shouldn't be hard to remember for anyone who's not mentally challenged. The consumables are even separated by importance and level of expertise(so are the rotations)

Even though you may call it "optional", in practice knowing and practicing all this is anything but optional in order for most people to be accepted into parties. And again, my belief is that consolidating the layers of redundant buff/customization systems is a net benefit to the game. It's totally possible to accomplish the same goals in a much more streamlined way.

I was talking about stuff like keen charms for healers, ward and dash scrolls etc.

And, again, of course it's possible to do it in a better way. You are basically saying "It's possible to cross an ocean with something faster than a ship so, from now on, we'll be using paddle boats". The changes being discussed in this topic do NOT achieve the same goals. They make some of the goals impossible to achieve and I'm pretty sure that's not the same.

msoltyspl · July 2016

LET'S DUMB DOWN EVERYTHING

I'm not even surprised anymore at this point.

Also how many times you got upset when someone ress you with 0 stam?

Zero. That's why you have 3 types of panaceas. Not mentioning other related stuff.

Next update after that, remove all crafting, of course. If they keep dumbing down stuff Tera will become a glorified Facebook game. x.x

Honestly, I'm sure whatever people are making calls at BHS would drool over the idea. Mobile+FB = nirvana.

TERA's gonna follow the path of WoW to just appeal to the lowest common denominator

Not "is gonna" - "has been". Since 2013 when they went f2p. The issue is that it reached comical levels by now.

aeee98 · July 2016

voidy wrote: »

Back when I started playing maplestory nearly a decade ago, there were a few classes with a lot of variety between them. Maps were large and varied; going from one end of the game's world to another could take hours. Then, as the years went by, Nexon simplified it. Classes that were once about using multiple skills in clever ways are now all about spamming a single skill, or maybe two skills if you're lucky. Teleportals were introduced, effectively destroying the old system of travel that forced players to ride a single airship together.

Now Nexon is, in some ways, in charge of Tera. I'm not entirely clear on their relationship to BHS, but their name is slapped next to the game now and that certainly means something. And what do I see? Devs discouraging group activities and choice/exploration in favor of streamlining, while massively dumbing down the content. The same things Nexon did to the last game I enjoyed. I really hope it's just a coincidence.

Nexon KR's management is pushing for garnering casual gamers' and whales support these days, as shown in their games. Was the same reason why Maple Story went down to garbage, new classes becoming stupidly easy to play, potentials turning players into gods etc.

TWMagimay wrote: »

You know what. I actually did. I've been looking for a refresher course on how2sorc(see what changed since last time I played). I read Yosha's guide and it's basically 90% cookie cutter. I'm not sure how dumb you think players are(or should be) but this stuff shouldn't be hard to remember for anyone who's not mentally challenged. The consumables are even separated by importance and level of expertise(so are the rotations)

From their (Nexon KR) point of view, most players, who probably won't play the game for more than an hour for a day, don't have the mental capacity to handle more than 10 skill keys. Because that made the top few players, who can handle all the keybindings strictly better than the newer players, it caused the disparity. It didn't make any sense for someone to clear a piece of content just because they can string a very huge combo together, and most of the time the combo has to be broken because of mechanic.

Assuming you are a new player, would you be able to pull off a string of 15 skills with quick succession without failing? If it were in the old times, I think it is still possible, but for now, with most players being used to ezmode games, it is really difficult. This is why their newer classes have fewer skills to make it easier for the newer player to handle.

No matter how used we are to consumables, we are built to it. While Nexon streamlines things, so does the mentality of the newer player. It saves mental thought of what to bring to a dungeon, I'd admit. But it also removes the original intention of the systems put in play to make the TERA experience feel unique. To me, the game will never feel the same without me having 2 rows of different sorts of charms. The days where I actually use the Relentless Charms to stand in for permanent bandage usages, and trolling people with trap charms for the lolz (and of course throwing the correct charms after)

Not too sure how the KR people will react, but for the global players this patch is a stab on our feet. The game was easy enough at schisma/lucid patch, and even easier in dnaught/starfall patch. We don't need it to turn into a ezmode cookie cutter game which doesn't look different from the rest.

msoltyspl · July 2016

Not too sure how the KR people will react,

It's all done for them, and in large part by their feedback.

Idi0ticGenius · July 2016

KR people's reaction are no different from NA.

It's just that there have been a ton of noobs in KTERA just like NA's Steam release.

Mobius1 · July 2016

@counterpoint In my opinion, Tera is a hugely dumbed down game compared to the games I'm used to playing.

Remember the days in when games had you pick your stats, choose your abilities, decide what stats are in your gear, what type of weapon or spells you use, etc..

The complexity of Tera is a joke compared to that! If someone can't hand the complexity it has, they should go play a kid's game.

You won't see most of us claim that aren't issues with the current system that could be ironed out.

My nice, swanky jacket may get wrinkled and dirty, but I'm not going to just throw it in the garbage and replace it with a t shirt. I'm going to try and wash it and iron it, like any rational person.

They haven't even TRIED to fix these issues - abandoning them is premature!

KTERA's Developer Note regarding System/UI revamp is out

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