KTERA's Developer Note regarding System/UI revamp is out

Squishies · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

if anyone can actually articulate good usable arguments about the benefits of the old system that threaten to be lost, but I'm done arguing in circles about it.

We lose anywhere crafting via campfires

We lose stamina management as an aspect of skilled play and as negative reinforcement for not dying

We lose alchemy as an aspect of economy and item management

We lose the social aspect of gathering for buffs and charms

We lose benefits from 135 Stamina and the edge gained from being able to obtain it

We lose mirror charm reflect, swift charm effect for CS and racing community games

We lose healers being able to use critical scrolls

We lose tanks being able to use attack speed scrolls

We lose warding scrolls that can provide extra survivability

We lose eclipse potions that can allow tanks to fill in as DPS

We lose healing buff items (heart potions) to get more out of received heals

We lose all the various effects from rootstock items that provide even more edge to players who spent time obtaining a sizable supply

We lose different recovery potions that have separate cooldowns that providers greater precision and control over how much and how often we can pot

We lose the possibility of these forgotten buffs, charms and potions being buffed to made more useful

Every player who is knowledgeable in item management or in alchemy gets severely punished for utilizing these items for maximum effect: Players who have saved up Heaven's elixirs, rootstock foods and rare draughts to maximize their effectiveness get nerfed, and they will lose any return on investment for any supplies they cannot use until this change.

We lose all of this... just so that the savvy players who know how to min/max their capabilities get their choice limited and brought down to other players who cannot be bothered to familiarize themselves with consumables (in an action combat game!) and save some buff icons.

We're not getting a more efficient system. We're getting a more dumbed down system that punishes players who mastered this aspect of the game and limits their choices.

What's next? Action combat too complex and hard so we switch to tab targetting?

You know what I'd LOVE to see? Removing [filtered] RNG progression systems like masterworking, awakening and the junk stat bonuses that we have to reroll. Now THESE are pointless systems that do not benefit player experience at all or enable them to enjoy the game!

msoltyspl · July 2016

You know what I'd LOVE to see? Removing [filtered] RNG progression systems like masterworking, awakening and the junk stat bonuses that we have to reroll. Now THESE are pointless systems that do not benefit player experience at all or enable them to enjoy the game!

This x100 times.

As for the stuff you mentioned - casian tree elin/rootstock buffs, warding scrolls, multiple separate CD mp/hp potions, dash scrolls, bolsters, heart potions, even stupid grounding brooch noone uses - this was a wipe/success difference more than a few times for me as a tank in SCHM (real one, not the later nerfed [filtered]).

The beauty of skilled gameplay there was to realize potential of unusual stuff and use it appropriately.

What's next? Action combat too complex and hard so we switch to tab targetting?

Tera: Mobile Action Attack, designed specially for braindead korean casuls. All possible consumables mergd into 1 item, 5s CD, 1g on regular merchant. 2 skills per class.

counterpoint · July 2016

The problem with most of that list, in the scenario I gave before, is that the logical reply from the developers -- who already chose to take it all out -- is: "We know they're losing those things; we're taking them out. We think it's worth it." You can reply "well, I think it's not" but that's about it. A few of them have edge case benefits that could (and maybe should) be accommodated in other ways, but arguments like "look at all we're losing simply by losing it" aren't salable to people who've already made the decision it was worth taking out (again, in my experience).

(Aside, I think Rootstock food is on the list of things they're keeping. And I also agree 100% about RNG progression systems as well.)

msoltyspl · July 2016

You wanted list, you got one. Don't bend the context now.

Squishies · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

The problem with most of that list, in the scenario I gave before, is that the logical reply from the developers -- who already chose to take it all out -- is: "We know they're losing those things; we're taking them out. We think it's worth it."

The stance the devs have taken (as usual) probably means nothing will change their minds if they've already pondered what the players are losing due their whimsical design decisions.

Also, I'm still salty over the loss of weapon and armor remodeling from 2 years ago. I'm just going to need a larger lake to hold all this sodium chloride once these changes inevitably hit.

counterpoint · July 2016

msoltyspl wrote: »

You wanted list, you got one. Don't bend the context now.

I asked for "good usable arguments about the benefits of the old system that threaten to be lost." Saying "the items had inherent benefit and you're taking them out, which is bad" isn't a usable argument -- they already know they're taking them out, so it won't convince anyone. You're not negotiating as an equal, you're appealing as a petitioner, for better or worse...

Xaera wrote: »

Because healers doing solo content get a lot of use out of being able to use crit scrolls? That's probably the biggest issue.

This is actually a more usable argument, because it's a specific benefit the old system provided in specific cases that could be accommodated somehow with the remaining systems, and is a relatively common use case.

(What if, for example, the Battle Nostrums applied Crit boost to all classes (instead of just Tank/DPS), Power for Tank/DPS, and Attack Speed for Healers? That way they get the benefit of crit boost, without the "useless" effect of power on healers? It may be a long shot, but maybe an actual case could be constructed if there were something to back it up.)

Nopi · July 2016

I'm reading this thread and in agreement with counterpoint, the views are just rolling in circles indeed. Now, I must change my view in one aspect. I thought veterans just liked their customization options no matter how simple or complicated they were to setup, but it seems that to show "management skill", those options should also be complicated and harder to learn and maintain (since the current system, no matter how easy it is point by point, when meshed together, is more complicated indeed than having it all, same customization and all that, in a simpler format). So apparently yeah. The system not only should allow more customization, but MUST also be difficult to learn. The more difficult the better, it seems. I assume this is because it's to reward people who are more talented not only at the active part of the game, but at the behind the scenes part as well. That a player's skill at preparation should be as important as his skill at the action part. And for that, a harder to use customization setup should be best. At least that's what I'm getting from some posters( @Mobius1 , is this your stance?). Others do only miss the lost options, but no idea if they also prefer a more complicated system or would be fine if everything was re-added in single window format.

So @counterpoint . I REALLY doubt that you will convince anyone of these posters that even if re-adding all that was listed to be lost in a simpler way, just making it easier is a loss to them because they want the difficulty. The whole "I'm better than you because I can manage a more complicated system better" argument is strong here. I can still be wrong here so correct me, please.

Sadly for them, this is not what the devs seem to be thinking. They seem to want people to focus more on the combat itself than the micro management of a character behind the scenes. So all we could do right now, as counterpoint said, is list what is being lost in terms of customization options (which i already tried to list before), and forget about making the management aspect harder, because the very makers of the game want that part to be simpler.

Mobius1 · July 2016

I eat food that clearly says it gives me +power, and I get +power. If I use a charm that says it gives me +power, I get + power. It's rather simple, and not complicated whatsoever.

Your whole argument is saying that the system is redundant and complicated, when it is not complicated at all.

The point of the redundancy, is to allow for an extra craft to thrive, and to add variety and cool effects. Even if it's something that adds no in combat benefit. But they are throwing stuff down the drain, that added an extra facet to the game.

It's a bloody waste of development time.

You want to hear redundant and complicated?! Let's talk about +attack, and +power, and +damage, and +PvP attack, and +PvP damage, and so on and so forth. THAT is redundancy that is so confusing, people STILL don't understand it, and probably never will.

Do I want +1 PvP attack or +1% PvP damage? Or +1% damage? Or +1 power?

Or Endurance, or defense, or damage reduction, or PvP defense, or PvP damage reduction?

How about they fix crap that actually IS confusing and overly complicated?

Masterworking, and enchanting, and awakening, and rerolling, and crystalbinds, and semi enigmatic scrolls, and dismantling, and alkahests of gaIllion kinds, and feedstocks of different kinds, and RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG, and then more RNG shoe horned in somewhere.

Those are all things that ARE overly complicated and confusing. Consumables and charms, on the other hand, are pretty bloody simple, if you ask me!!!!

Pixelator · July 2016

If you're using the charms/food buffs/whatever to elevate yourself above the fresh newbies... there's an old saying: "pick on someone your own size" - i.e. only worthy discussion here is comparing against other experienced players who use the same cookie-cutter Power-Endurance-Infused-Nostrum-CritPowerScroll-Noctenium-LambBulgogi. And believe me, no amount of buff min-maxing will let you outperform someone who just executes the class better than you.

All this change does is simplify the inevitable.

I do agree that simply removing functioning things like eclipse potion, warding/dash scrolls is kind of unnecessary. They could have at least kept them in the NPC store for some small gold sink.

Nopi · July 2016

Again, trying to understand and be understood. Charms and pots ARE easy. They are straightforwards easy. But it's not about these being easy by themselves.... anyway let me spell it again so you all know I totally agree on that part. Charms, stamina and pots ARE easy. Period. The thing is that those are also meshed with the whole everything else.

Let's start numbering the layers. Crystals that give stats. Again, easy on their own right. Add those to the math. Then add glyphs. Which are not completely clear on what they do in some instances. Like crit chance against crit factor... Nobody knows exactly how much crit chance your crit factor value gives unless we take player field tests as truth. And because everyone from NPCs to players also have a crit resist stat, doubt we will ever know. THOUGH at least there we know that more is better, just not exactly where it caps and gets useless. Anyway, continuing with the math, add weapon, gear and accessory stats. Again, easy on themselves, but remember we are adding this all to a tower of math calculations already, and the less gifted are already running to guides instead of trying the math themselves.

Now, I also agree that taking the easy to understand parts out first is wrong if the goal is to simplify.

Now lemme give a derp's explanation to damage and damage reduction in terms of direct stats and percentages. The way I see it (correct me if I'm wrong) the direct stat is on the character as a total of how he can possibly perform. A max. (In old pen paper, I think that's similar to the "To hit armor class 0" concept). Percentages were added later as a direct advantage bonus and bypass the "to hit armor class 0" stuff. I assume it is to avoid a scenario where your character is able to deal a lot of stupid high damage against an enemy with no percentage added. Or the opposite of your character not being able to do any damage because your enemy has a high total defense. So I think the percentages are a sort of "bleed through" damage formula. The sum of both direct and percentage results in the damage given or taken in the end. The extra pvp stuff was added on top of it because to this day in my opinion, fighting an NPC is not the same as fighting a live player. NPCs don't usually complain about OP damage or OP defense.

Lastly, the RNG is a fake but extremely easy way to make the grind (and most important, the play time) longer. Many people don't like it, and sometimes it's too much. But since RNG is the way to keep people around for longer, it's a necessary evil. So it's either rng over rng or everyone will be rolling on Imperator gear by the week a patch hits and leaving the game until the next patch comes. Now, I think we all do agree that they dropped the ball hard with the addition of the tiered mats and so many versions of one thing(like alks)

TheGreyWolf · July 2016

Mobius1 wrote: »

How about they fix crap that actually IS confusing and overly complicated?

Masterworking, and enchanting, and awakening, and rerolling, and crystalbinds, and semi enigmatic scrolls, and dismantling, and alkahests of gaIllion kinds, and feedstocks of different kinds, and RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG, and then more RNG shoe horned in somewhere.

Those are all things that ARE overly complicated and confusing. Consumables and charms, on the other hand, are pretty bloody simple, if you ask me!!!!

Agreed 100%.

Lots of confusing, complicated things in this game. Charms were never one of them.

TWMagimay · July 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

We have had many threads on this forum over the years that discussed at length how bad the game and leveling process was at explaining anything that truly mattered in endgame, how it really takes player guides to make sense of everything, and even people in this very thread who admitted that they were wholly ignorant in their early days and look back on it now with embarrassment. To act like it's all super-obvious and easy to anyone "who's not a complete idiot" or not "mentally challenged" is a pretty remarkably different view of TERA than what I've ever seen or experienced. Of course, I'm not saying that charms or consumables have ever been themselves a primary point of contention, and I've never argued they were. But if your honest view of new players in TERA is that anyone who isn't up to speed on all the layered systems is just that stupid because it's just that obvious, then I guess I see where the fundamental disagreement comes from.

Has it ever occurred to you that those people just didn't bother to look at what they were getting? Can you explain the confusing part about:
Oh, I got mail - "Hey, here are some charms for you." Charms, huh. Let's hoover over them with the mouse. What does it say? "Increase power when in combat." Huh, more power in combat, that sounds nice, let me use it and see what happens.
Oh, another mail - "Some nostrums for you". Let's hoover over it again..."decrease cooldowns". Neat. Let me use it also. I wonder if I can us the charms I got yesterday and the nostrum from today at the same time. Woah, it work. Nice, nice.
It's not "too confusing" people are just too lazy to read those descriptions and try those things out. OR they are morons of they can't understand "this thing gives you more power" and get confused by it.

Btw, I don't understand what your problem with the list is(it's missing a few things though and I covered some a them somewhere at the start of the topic). There isn't much more than "it's used for this and that" to it. How is "we can't use mirror charm in CS" a bad argument but "healers can't use crit scroll in solo content" is a good argument?

TheGreyWolf · July 2016

TWMagimay wrote: »

counterpoint wrote: »

We have had many threads on this forum over the years that discussed at length how bad the game and leveling process was at explaining anything that truly mattered in endgame, how it really takes player guides to make sense of everything, and even people in this very thread who admitted that they were wholly ignorant in their early days and look back on it now with embarrassment. To act like it's all super-obvious and easy to anyone "who's not a complete idiot" or not "mentally challenged" is a pretty remarkably different view of TERA than what I've ever seen or experienced. Of course, I'm not saying that charms or consumables have ever been themselves a primary point of contention, and I've never argued they were. But if your honest view of new players in TERA is that anyone who isn't up to speed on all the layered systems is just that stupid because it's just that obvious, then I guess I see where the fundamental disagreement comes from.

Has it ever occurred to you that those people just didn't bother to look at what they were getting? Can you explain the confusing part about:
Oh, I got mail - "Hey, here are some charms for you." Charms, huh. Let's hoover over them with the mouse. What does it say? "Increase power when in combat." Huh, more power in combat, that sounds nice, let me use it and see what happens.
Oh, another mail - "Some nostrums for you". Let's hoover over it again..."decrease cooldowns". Neat. Let me use it also. I wonder if I can us the charms I got yesterday and the nostrum from today at the same time. Woah, it work. Nice, nice.
It's not "too confusing" people are just too lazy to read those descriptions and try those things out. OR they are morons of they can't understand "this thing gives you more power" and get confused by it.

Btw, I don't understand what your problem with the list is(it's missing a few things though and I covered some a them somewhere at the start of the topic). There isn't much more than "it's used for this and that" to it. How is "we can't use mirror charm in CS" a bad argument but "healers can't use crit scroll in solo content" is a good argument?

Yup, charms say what they do and do what they say. Very simple.

As opposed to enchanting... "uh, so let's see... I need these things called alkahests? okay... oh. I need more of them? Okay. Oh, that's not the right kind... okay. Oh and I need something called feedstock... the merchants don't sell feedstock though. Oh, I get it from dismantling. How do I dismantle? Oh, there it is. Wait, these items say they can't be dismantled. Oh, I have feedstock from quests though. Oh, it's the wrong level of feedstock. How do I get the right level? Oh I can combine them. Okay... seems... simple enough, I guess. Okay, I got my weapon to +9. Cool! So now it's the best, right? What... what do you mean +12? But it maxed out at +9! Oh... oh I see. It has to be masterworked. Okay, how do I do that? Master enigmatic scroll you say? Okay. Wait... now it says it has to be identified. OH, okay, so I have to go back to the merchant and buy identification scrolls. Wait, common identification scrolls don't work? Okay. So I have to buy the expensive ones. Alright. There, I rerolled it. Now what? It's not masterworked yet? I have to do it again? Okay. Again and again until it says masterworked? Gee, this is getting expensive... okay. *reroll reroll reroll reroll etc.* Oh, goodie! Now it says masterworked. Now what? Back to enchanting? Okay. Wait, how come my alkahest isn't working? Oh, I see, I need different alkahest now. Okay. Alright, now I got it to +12. So now it's good, right? Why does it say 80%? Oh, I need to reroll the stats. How do I do that? Oh, enigmatic scrolls again. Okay... oh I got 2 out of 3 of the stats I want. It says I can lock them in and just reroll for the third one. How do I do that? Spellbinds you say? Okay...I think I had some of those somewhere. Ah, there we go. No wait, these are the wrong ones. Okay, there we go, found the right ones. I think I finally figured it out now. Cool! Okay, that was a little confusing, but it wasn't TOO bad...

... +15? There's +15? O.o Wow, okay. So how do I get that?"

... sure, that's easy. But charms... charms are the confusing part. Ohhh and don't get me started on crystals! We're gonna have to get rid of those next!

Cezzare · July 2016

It seems the devs simply favored the most general cases/combinations, there were like what? 12 different charms? each with 3 rarity variants, among those 12 only 6 were used -2 of them only in battlegrounds. If we start thinking a bit we can come up with a use for each charm type indeed, but many of those would be very specific cases.

One annoying thing charms have is their cooldowns, the time the UI takes to "realize" you put up a campfire and the fact your charms overwrite others', will anyone tell me you liked some random guy overwrite your 30-min infused charm with a minor cunning charm in the middle of a dungeon run? -before the elite charm trio was introduced, that is, and let's not forget not every player out there has elite- To this day I still have party/raid members that burn their Mysteel charm trio in a charming campfire before the dungeon run starts but right after you burned your three rare charms.

About the scrolls, leaving those sold by the dungeon merchants would've been good, but it simply seems the devs want to standarize things before tweaking them any further. Also, I don't know if the team responsible for the revamped IoD is the same as the one that made Ghillieglade, but giving healers attack speed and taking away the crit power scroll simply reinforces the impression they don't want healers to run solo content on a regular basis.

TWMagimay · July 2016

Cezzare wrote: »

It seems the devs simply favored the most general cases/combinations, there were like what? 12 different charms? each with 3 rarity variants, among those 12 only 6 were used -2 of them only in battlegrounds. If we start thinking a bit we can come up with a use for each charm type indeed, but many of those would be very specific cases.

One annoying thing charms have is their cooldowns, the the UI takes to "realize" you put up a campfire and the fact your charms overwrite others', will anyone tell me you liked some random guy overwrite your 30-min infused charm with a minur cunning charm in the middle of a dungeon run? -before the elite charm trio was introduced, that is, and let's not forget not every player out there has elite- To this day I still have party/raid members that burn their Mysteel charm trio in a charming campfire before the dungeon run starts but right after you burned your three rare charms.

You see, there's a much better way to fix those issues and I wrote it somewhere at the start. Remove non-greater charms, turn friendly and mystel charms into balder's. Done. The only way somebody would have a cunning charm to throw is if they deliberately go to the speciality store and purchase it which should tell you a lot about their mentality(as in, you are looking at a person who goes out of their way to troll somebody). Heck, even replace the keen charms form boxes with power if you want. Healer who go to the trouble of using keen charms can afford to buy them.

And, seriously, that's what MMOs are. Layers of systems that you have to figure out, options that you have to consider. Some of it is explained in the game, the rest you have to work out on your own(or with the help of guides). It's not supposed to be a straight line from point A to point B. Complexity is -the- most important part. Without it, what do we even have? Walk forward, kill stuff on the road by pressing 1 button. When you reach the end of the road, that's it, game over. Nothing to discover, nothing to think about, just 1 button....

KTERA's Developer Note regarding System/UI revamp is out

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