[KTERA] New Developer's Note about 30 man Raid

seraphinush · August 2016

Phandemonium wrote: »

If they do work on easing the lag then this might actually be pretty fun ^^. That boss looks epic! Thank you for translation Loriri and Seraphinush

No problem! Loriri did most of the translation nya

Nopi wrote: »

If this is a pro-player-only instance, I assume every server will have only exactly 30 people to clear these, at most. While it's great to have harder content, when the game starts catering to casuals, only to then release hard content, it's like BHS is sending a mixed message. That or they simply want to please everyone, which would be a big mistake in the long run. We will have to see when the content releases.

I see it more as a message to push players to try harder content rather than pushing out the casual players from attempting the raid. as such though, i'm worried that even though server population itself is quite decent, there won't be enough people to challenge the content. it could be worse if players start excluding select players from attempting the run with them but as it is a 30 man raid and some servers indeed do lack players who challenge harder content, i'm sure players will need to compromise. i'm at least expecting players to attempt up to stages 1 and 2, while some elite groups may challenge the upper stages. hopefully false-elitism won't be a big issue here.

I also see it as a matter of commitment to the group- even with several wipes, is the group willing to continue challenging the dungeon? if the group needs a member change, i'm praying that players won't be straightout rude and the person being replaced won't take it to personally and see it as a chance to get better at not just their class but being able to predict and move accordingly. i know that most players are quite efficient with the class, but in certain situations some players do start spacing out.

I was actually hoping that the archer revamp would be before this update since having more than one archer would diminish dps greatly due to how Velik's Mark works... was the same with warriors with the edge system but we'll have to wait and see how it will play out.

dreamcast87 wrote: »

30 man raid in TERA will be an unoptimized and buggy mess. The average fps will always be below 10.

They are coming up with an optimization option for things such as the extravangance of skills and etc. hoping it will be good enough for a decent gameplay quality.

DivineRemnant wrote: »

I'm curious to know the stats of the 'superior etching' they mentioned, and also wondering if they are tradeable. And the only thing that everyone is guaranteed to get from a clear is tokens for vm8 upgrade, then? I wonder how great this 'dragon' gear is. Hopefully it's not just a simple, small defense/attack modifier increase - for me it wouldn't be worth the liberation removal.

We'll let you guys know once more information becomes available!

Nopi wrote: »

Before stuff like akeron's, Tera had Nexus with 80+ players and hordes of mobs and extra strong large bosses around. We had to do all that on a time limit as well. Everyone was running on lowest settings and still got like 5 fps. Oddly enough, I had fun on those.

For those of you who remember the very first Nexus Traverse, the server did crash when everyone was trying to load all the characters. they did bandaid that issue by graying out players after loading x amount of players. hopefully this dungeon will be better optimized.

Cheers,

seraphinush
- Archer
- Ascension Valley

msoltyspl · August 2016

Reez wrote: »

I don't hear too many people complaining about +15 or +15ing anymore, better system now than VM4 where it reset when you would fail an enchant. Not to mention getting mats to +15 isn't as much as a hassle as before.

Both are/were fundamentally broken, and that also includes everything related to "gearing" - regardless of the stage or the subject (enchanting, mw, rerolling, etching, awakening).

/Everything/ is based on:

a) mindless farming
b) dumb luck and casino addiction, with obvious hints towards cash shop for those desperate enough (or with a job)

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

I see it more as a message to push players to try harder content rather than pushing out the casual players from attempting the raid.

In Tera ? Any "message" for people to try something harder is thrown in a trashcan every few months with [harder] instances' nerfs/removals and new seasonal gear circlejerk that guarantees people would be walled from any harder content that might (if at all) happen in such "season". This 30man "raid" takes it to further extremes (weekly per stage limits and so on).

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

People complaint and talk about elitists, gear check, dps, pro/noob players, etc. And I'm just sitting here wondering how the [filtered] can BHS handle this dungeon from the fps drop when their game isn't well optimized.

They won't.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. With Tera / BHS and optimizations we're around fool me ten(+) times ....

Remmoos · August 2016

^ Good said.

TWMagimay · August 2016

msoltyspl wrote: »

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

I've been meaning to ask this. What would you suggest instead? Something that'll bring money in and keep players occupied for months at a time and doesn't involve large amounts of grind. And, no, "interesting content" is not a proper answer to the question, a bit more detail would be good.

Lamrious · August 2016

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VKlszx-5TE2cf7-3QTfLEN9xxBoQhrn2olYDbZGYGzc/edit#gid=675864650

Nopi · August 2016

I don't like the grind and the rng. But I understand it. When new content arrives, on the current system, people have two tasks. One, to learn the dungeons and conquer them. Second, to put them in farm mode because the grind and rng will mean that there will still be something there for you to get, even if the dungeon is the exact same. If you conquer the dungeon once and there's no gear grind, you will be done with the game faster than if you still needed to challenge the grind and rng. It's far from perfect. It's not something I personally like, but it's the current 'keep me here' way for the game to not get meaningless 2 weeks after a patch.

Anyway. That's my 2 cents on that, though I may be derailing the thread.

Moroku · August 2016

msoltyspl wrote: »

Reez wrote: »

I don't hear too many people complaining about +15 or +15ing anymore, better system now than VM4 where it reset when you would fail an enchant. Not to mention getting mats to +15 isn't as much as a hassle as before.

Both are/were fundamentally broken, and that also includes everything related to "gearing" - regardless of the stage or the subject (enchanting, mw, rerolling, etching, awakening).

/Everything/ is based on:

a) mindless farming
b) dumb luck and casino addiction, with obvious hints towards cash shop for those desperate enough (or with a job)

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

I see it more as a message to push players to try harder content rather than pushing out the casual players from attempting the raid.

In Tera ? Any "message" for people to try something harder is thrown in a trashcan every few months with [harder] instances' nerfs/removals and new seasonal gear circlejerk that guarantees people would be walled from any harder content that might (if at all) happen in such "season". This 30man "raid" takes it to further extremes (weekly per stage limits and so on).

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

People complaint and talk about elitists, gear check, dps, pro/noob players, etc. And I'm just sitting here wondering how the [filtered] can BHS handle this dungeon from the fps drop when their game isn't well optimized.

They won't.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. With Tera / BHS and optimizations we're around fool me ten(+) times ....

Go play WoW Legion, don't worry it will totally have lasting content that won't EVER get boring. Zzz people these days with no brains.

Pixelator · August 2016

msoltyspl wrote: »

Reez wrote: »

I don't hear too many people complaining about +15 or +15ing anymore, better system now than VM4 where it reset when you would fail an enchant. Not to mention getting mats to +15 isn't as much as a hassle as before.

/Everything/ is based on:

a) mindless farming
b) dumb luck and casino addiction, with obvious hints towards cash shop for those desperate enough (or with a job)

You forgot one:
c) mindful manipulation/riding of market forces

You can make more than what the mindless "wage slave" can ever dream of, and you don't even have to blow your brains out from boredom doing it.

TWMagimay · August 2016

Legerrarwen wrote: »

TWMagimay wrote: »

msoltyspl wrote: »

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

I've been meaning to ask this. What would you suggest instead? Something that'll bring money in and keep players occupied for months at a time and doesn't involve large amounts of grind. And, no, "interesting content" is not a proper answer to the question, a bit more detail would be good.

You know there are easy ways to make content both hard and insanely impossibly hard to complete and still possible for other people that are even under geared, which can be something they have done in the past with RG. Just add in like say 3 crystals at the start of a dungeon or more after they get a good grasp on the idea that would add challenge to the content from players choice. Take manglemire for instance its insanely easy now for everyone but you could add a challenge mode by adding the crystals that say add 2 extra numbers randomly or randomize the numbers since everyone is looking for 3/6/9 why not change it to be 1/4/7? or even better how about 2/5/6/8/9 right off the bat? of course if you are new you can just stick with the 3/6/9 format and learn it first. You can even take it a step further and say the group is wiping for hours at it they could add a crystal to remove 2 numbers so its easier so any group including IMS can clear anything.

Of course the idea behind this is so everyone can experience the content and learn it without spending insane amounts of time doing something but for those who make the dungeon weaker they lose say 50-75%+ of the drops while the ones that do harder challenges they get 25-50% more drops. It just makes the game more available for EVERYONE to enjoy the game how they want to play it so you can either do hard as [filtered] dungeons and brag about how pro you are or you can clear fairly easily without feeling pressured to be best gear/stats and min/max to best potential. The best part is instead of just killing content and removing it they could just add a twist to a dungeon and change the dynamics instead of just releasing the content in 3-6 months when everyone has "forgotten" the content and its shiny and new with just a few number tweaks, add in of course they wouldn't have to nerf dungeons either cause you can nerf them yourself if you feel you aren't good enough yet.

As for making money they could just make costumes for everyone not just super elin fun time, add in that more new players will be coming in and buying both new outfits and elite since more players will find the game fun instead of just boring and same easy content. For awakening just add in a small fail chance which is the easiest fix possible like even .2% per fail would give people hope that they wont do 500-1000+ tries without a success.

So, basically, your idea is to keep developing 50 dungeons, adding "twists" with the shelf-life of 3 days and then hoping people will keep playing for the fun of doing the same dungeons 10k times and paying for femani costumes. That is, indeed, a sound business plan.

Ketoth · August 2016

I wonder if they will add a new loot system. Because there isnt enough time to coordinate loot in 1min .

Yamazuki · August 2016

Legerrarwen wrote: »

TWMagimay wrote: »

msoltyspl wrote: »

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

I've been meaning to ask this. What would you suggest instead? Something that'll bring money in and keep players occupied for months at a time and doesn't involve large amounts of grind. And, no, "interesting content" is not a proper answer to the question, a bit more detail would be good.

You know there are easy ways to make content both hard and insanely impossibly hard to complete and still possible for other people that are even under geared, which can be something they have done in the past with RG. Just add in like say 3 crystals at the start of a dungeon or more after they get a good grasp on the idea that would add challenge to the content from players choice. Take manglemire for instance its insanely easy now for everyone but you could add a challenge mode by adding the crystals that say add 2 extra numbers randomly or randomize the numbers since everyone is looking for 3/6/9 why not change it to be 1/4/7? or even better how about 2/5/6/8/9 right off the bat? of course if you are new you can just stick with the 3/6/9 format and learn it first. You can even take it a step further and say the group is wiping for hours at it they could add a crystal to remove 2 numbers so its easier so any group including IMS can clear anything.

Of course the idea behind this is so everyone can experience the content and learn it without spending insane amounts of time doing something but for those who make the dungeon weaker they lose say 50-75%+ of the drops while the ones that do harder challenges they get 25-50% more drops. It just makes the game more available for EVERYONE to enjoy the game how they want to play it so you can either do hard as [filtered] dungeons and brag about how pro you are or you can clear fairly easily without feeling pressured to be best gear/stats and min/max to best potential. The best part is instead of just killing content and removing it they could just add a twist to a dungeon and change the dynamics instead of just releasing the content in 3-6 months when everyone has "forgotten" the content and its shiny and new with just a few number tweaks, add in of course they wouldn't have to nerf dungeons either cause you can nerf them yourself if you feel you aren't good enough yet.

As for making money they could just make costumes for everyone not just super elin fun time, add in that more new players will be coming in and buying both new outfits and elite since more players will find the game fun instead of just boring and same easy content. For awakening just add in a small fail chance which is the easiest fix possible like even .2% per fail would give people hope that they wont do 500-1000+ tries without a success.

I think you missed the "Something that'll bring money in" part. It seems most people forget that Tera is a product and generating profit is necessary. What you're suggesting is just having the developers waste resources maintaining a bunch of instances for nearly no gain, potentially losses. Even with the amount of dungeons currently available it can already take sometime to get a party other than for the more common instances like DFNM. Having too many instances solves nothing but add disappointment because ultimately people will just go with which ever gives the most rewards per minute, leaving all the other instances dead.

Steplite · August 2016

Yamazuki wrote: »

Legerrarwen wrote: »

TWMagimay wrote: »

msoltyspl wrote: »

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

I've been meaning to ask this. What would you suggest instead? Something that'll bring money in and keep players occupied for months at a time and doesn't involve large amounts of grind. And, no, "interesting content" is not a proper answer to the question, a bit more detail would be good.

You know there are easy ways to make content both hard and insanely impossibly hard to complete and still possible for other people that are even under geared, which can be something they have done in the past with RG. Just add in like say 3 crystals at the start of a dungeon or more after they get a good grasp on the idea that would add challenge to the content from players choice. Take manglemire for instance its insanely easy now for everyone but you could add a challenge mode by adding the crystals that say add 2 extra numbers randomly or randomize the numbers since everyone is looking for 3/6/9 why not change it to be 1/4/7? or even better how about 2/5/6/8/9 right off the bat? of course if you are new you can just stick with the 3/6/9 format and learn it first. You can even take it a step further and say the group is wiping for hours at it they could add a crystal to remove 2 numbers so its easier so any group including IMS can clear anything.

Of course the idea behind this is so everyone can experience the content and learn it without spending insane amounts of time doing something but for those who make the dungeon weaker they lose say 50-75%+ of the drops while the ones that do harder challenges they get 25-50% more drops. It just makes the game more available for EVERYONE to enjoy the game how they want to play it so you can either do hard as [filtered] dungeons and brag about how pro you are or you can clear fairly easily without feeling pressured to be best gear/stats and min/max to best potential. The best part is instead of just killing content and removing it they could just add a twist to a dungeon and change the dynamics instead of just releasing the content in 3-6 months when everyone has "forgotten" the content and its shiny and new with just a few number tweaks, add in of course they wouldn't have to nerf dungeons either cause you can nerf them yourself if you feel you aren't good enough yet.

As for making money they could just make costumes for everyone not just super elin fun time, add in that more new players will be coming in and buying both new outfits and elite since more players will find the game fun instead of just boring and same easy content. For awakening just add in a small fail chance which is the easiest fix possible like even .2% per fail would give people hope that they wont do 500-1000+ tries without a success.

I think you missed the "Something that'll bring money in" part. It seems most people forget that Tera is a product and generating profit is necessary. What you're suggesting is just having the developers waste resources maintaining a bunch of instances for nearly no gain, potentially losses. Even with the amount of dungeons currently available it can already take sometime to get a party other than for the more common instances like DFNM. Having too many instances solves nothing but add disappointment because ultimately people will just go with which ever gives the most rewards per minute, leaving all the other instances dead.

Good point. They have to have the right number of dungeons available. Too many and the queues are too long. Too few and people get bored grinding the same ones over and over.

TWMagimay · August 2016

Legerrarwen wrote: »

TWMagimay wrote: »

Legerrarwen wrote: »

TWMagimay wrote: »

msoltyspl wrote: »

It's a cancer in - especially - an action combat game. Where gear shoud be a simple, tunable, replacable tool for the job.

We could have at least ten super hard instances by now, that people could be trying / doing without worrying about stupid gear. We have empty shell of a game with people only farming.

I've been meaning to ask this. What would you suggest instead? Something that'll bring money in and keep players occupied for months at a time and doesn't involve large amounts of grind. And, no, "interesting content" is not a proper answer to the question, a bit more detail would be good.

You know there are easy ways to make content both hard and insanely impossibly hard to complete and still possible for other people that are even under geared, which can be something they have done in the past with RG. Just add in like say 3 crystals at the start of a dungeon or more after they get a good grasp on the idea that would add challenge to the content from players choice. Take manglemire for instance its insanely easy now for everyone but you could add a challenge mode by adding the crystals that say add 2 extra numbers randomly or randomize the numbers since everyone is looking for 3/6/9 why not change it to be 1/4/7? or even better how about 2/5/6/8/9 right off the bat? of course if you are new you can just stick with the 3/6/9 format and learn it first. You can even take it a step further and say the group is wiping for hours at it they could add a crystal to remove 2 numbers so its easier so any group including IMS can clear anything.

Of course the idea behind this is so everyone can experience the content and learn it without spending insane amounts of time doing something but for those who make the dungeon weaker they lose say 50-75%+ of the drops while the ones that do harder challenges they get 25-50% more drops. It just makes the game more available for EVERYONE to enjoy the game how they want to play it so you can either do hard as [filtered] dungeons and brag about how pro you are or you can clear fairly easily without feeling pressured to be best gear/stats and min/max to best potential. The best part is instead of just killing content and removing it they could just add a twist to a dungeon and change the dynamics instead of just releasing the content in 3-6 months when everyone has "forgotten" the content and its shiny and new with just a few number tweaks, add in of course they wouldn't have to nerf dungeons either cause you can nerf them yourself if you feel you aren't good enough yet.

As for making money they could just make costumes for everyone not just super elin fun time, add in that more new players will be coming in and buying both new outfits and elite since more players will find the game fun instead of just boring and same easy content. For awakening just add in a small fail chance which is the easiest fix possible like even .2% per fail would give people hope that they wont do 500-1000+ tries without a success.

So, basically, your idea is to keep developing 50 dungeons, adding "twists" with the shelf-life of 3 days and then hoping people will keep playing for the fun of doing the same dungeons 10k times and paying for femani costumes. That is, indeed, a sound business plan.

Yep cause adding a buff or a small twist that makes a boss easier or harder is completely coming up with a new dungeon, seriously how hard is it to code a boss to have different buffs? and again its certainly more entertaining having them slightly change the dungeon rather than having it removed for a while and coming back exactly the same just the numbers changed to make it basically the same dungeon just with different gear/numbers or in some cases like WH it comes back and they make majority of the dungeon worthless by adding in skipping teleports and either not pumping the numbers up enough or just not changing the numbers at all.

There is absolutely no reason they cant just put in a week or 2 on old content that they are planning to re-release instead of the 10-15 minutes or so it takes to change one number to another, since variety makes the game funner while getting same content just removed and added constantly just annoys people

I didn't say "coming up with a new dungeon". We've had like 50 endgame dungeons by now that'd need to be "tweaked" regularly. Your example of random buffs doesn't make it harder. You think people are so dumb, they can't glance at a few numbers and remember them? And those idiots are the players who need harder content?

DivineRemnant · August 2016

Well actually, it would make it harder because it requires more effort on your part. Not only that, with the example they provided with manglemire/more it would make it more interesting. It has nothing to do with whether people are smart or dumb, it would just make it a different experience every time (okay, not every time but at least there's an opportunity for a difference). Regardless, I wouldn't want this to get in the way of "new" content.

TWMagimay · August 2016

DivineRemnant wrote: »

Well actually, it would make it harder because it requires more effort on your part. Not only that, with the example they provided with manglemire/more it would make it more interesting. It has nothing to do with whether people are smart or dumb, it would just make it a different experience every time (okay, not every time but at least there's an opportunity for a difference). Regardless, I wouldn't want this to get in the way of "new" content.

Well, guess I misspoke. I can totally see how glancing at the numbers adds a whole new layer of complexity to the dungeon. And having to keep them in mind for the whole 5min of the run is such a challenge. It's, like, 3 whole numbers, only the very best can remember such a complex thing.

[KTERA] New Developer's Note about 30 man Raid

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