Please stop turning your noses up at Zerker and Warrior tanks.

WilLegend · August 2016

I found it here, but I think that there isn't more details: http://forums.enmasse.com/tera/discussion/4548/ktera-class-revamp-plans/p1

Tirani wrote: »

Obscumbra wrote: »

The problem with them is that other tanks just do what Warriors and Zerks do, but they do them better. If you want party support, go Lancer. If you want raw damage, go Brawler. Warriors and Zerks can tank, but what's the point when you can wait for a Brawler or Lancer who can do the job of both better.

The only advantage that Warriors have is the amount of iframes, but that doesn't really matter when they can't block as well as the other two main tanks. Zerks just don't have any good tools.

Getting the job done is fine and all, but a lot of people would rather have it done efficiently. Of course if they complain about a Warrior/Zerk tank in casual dungeons, then they're just pretty bad themselves and can't carry the run.

And there's no way to say how good you were at actually tanking if you wanted to go with that title. Tanks can hold aggro and still be terrible tanks.

ALL OF THIS! Couldnt have said it better myself! :proud:

WilLegend wrote: »

so no one will still complaining about it.

lmao if only it were that simple.. unfortunetly this part of your statement is completely backwards, any class getting nerfed/buffed/revamped is 120% certainly going to be complained about, not by everyone obviously, but there will always undoubtedly be a portion of the community that complains about any and every change made to the game.. its just part of mmolife.

Well, at least it shouldn't be complainings saying that it sucks, maybe only cause it will be OP lol

Krovoc · August 2016

I wouldn't mind having an OP tank that is also fun to play. The more I play my Brawler, the less I like her.

I had wanted to apend something to my previous post, before Will posted, but instead I'll put it here.
Remember, when you try to change out a party member for one that might be better, you are rolling the dice. Will the next one be better? That is really what this thread is about. Not whether or not the Brawler or Lancer have some inherent advantage. I already said that they do, so why debate that? When no one is debating a point, pounding it in further just sounds like a bunch of haters and/or fan-boys circle [filtered]'ing.

Also, I'm not convinced that the Brawler necessarily beats out the Warrior in terms of damage. Zerker, sure, but I'm not convinced on the Warrior-tank DPS vs Brawler DPS. If there is a difference, it is small. The ease at which the Brawler can be played makes it's DPS seem deceptively good. The only disadvantage I see in terms of Warrior vs Brawler in regards to tanking is that the Brawler is MUCH better at dealing with adds. If the Warrior has a decent mechanism for handling them I would love to know about it because I hate adds.

edit: I know my Brawler beats out my Warrior (as does most everyone right now), so I'm not claiming that I'm some uber Warrior-tank. In fact, I wouldn't have been fuming yesterday if I thought I was competent. Just after reading some forum posts, including comments in this thread, I realized that the Warrior damage output as a tank should be pretty good. Switching from A- to D-stance reduces crit factor and power, yes, but the power loss isn't that great, and I'm already crit'ing most of the time anyway. My problem is that my rotation is [filtered]. I've been practicing on IoD BAMs trying to find a good one that doesn't deplete my HP too fast (Combative Strike spam). The biggest issue, I think, is that there are too many things I want to have withing easy reach, and too many skills that have immutable chains.

Nopi · August 2016

.

Krovoc wrote: »

I wouldn't mind having an OP tank that is also fun to play. The more I play my Brawler, the less I like her.

I had wanted to apend something to my previous post, before Will posted, but instead I'll put it here.
Remember, when you try to change out a party member for one that might be better, you are rolling the dice. Will the next one be better? That is really what this thread is about. Not whether or not the Brawler or Lancer have some inherent advantage. I already said that they do, so why debate that? When no one is debating a point, pounding it in further just sounds like a bunch of haters and/or fan-boys circle [filtered]'ing.

Also, I'm not convinced that the Brawler necessarily beats out the Warrior in terms of damage. Zerker, sure, but I'm not convinced on the Warrior-tank DPS vs Brawler DPS. If there is a difference, it is small. The ease at which the Brawler can be played makes it's DPS seem deceptively good. The only disadvantage I see in terms of Warrior vs Brawler in regards to tanking is that the Brawler is MUCH better at dealing with adds. If the Warrior has a decent mechanism for handling them I would love to know about it because I hate adds.

edit: I know my Brawler beats out my Warrior (as does most everyone right now), so I'm not claiming that I'm some uber Warrior-tank. In fact, I wouldn't have been fuming yesterday if I thought I was competent. Just after reading some forum posts, including comments in this thread, I realized that the Warrior damage output as a tank should be pretty good. Switching from A- to D-stance reduces crit factor and power, yes, but the power loss isn't that great, and I'm already crit'ing most of the time anyway. My problem is that my rotation is [filtered]. I've been practicing on IoD BAMs trying to find a good one that doesn't deplete my HP too fast (Combative Strike spam). The biggest issue, I think, is that there are too many things I want to have withing easy reach, and too many skills that have immutable chains.

Maybe these dust bunnies would feel better if Tera only had three classes. One OP DPS, one OP tank and one OP healer, since anything lower than best is apparently a detriment to the party. Bah. I wasn't going to say it but there. I said it. Sue me. I'm not giving you my muffins anyway. Better die full than live muffinless. Of course, I can't force anyone to accept my "sub optimal" tank in a party. But if we are going to insta kick people based on their class and role, then good luck with the newly installed Brawler, Mystic and Ninja only community. <.<

As for your keys, in the chain skills window there's a little box you can unckeck named "Show default chained skills" I haven't tried it much but it apparently kills all inherent chains. Even retaliate. Sure, you could re-purpose your spacebar, put jump somewhere else (as everyone should have done already anyway) and give it a shortcut for retaliate to sit in. I have not tried this myself but I suppose it could work. Looks logical at least on paper.

5H96Y49G6D · August 2016

Krovoc wrote: »

5H96Y49G6D wrote: »

community dictates what a tank is

A tank is whoever gets the job done. Also, if you go by what the community here seems to be saying, three out of three opinions have been that Warriors and Zerkers ARE tanks. You do implicitly seem to think other wise, and that you speak for the entire community.

From your other posts, you are clearly here to troll. Please do it somewhere else.

ok but I'm practical.

If you choose to pug and the overall consensus is that tanks are only Lancers/ Brawlers then tanks are only Lancers n Brawlers.
Lets not be smartasss here u know this, I know this, OP knows this.
He risked qing tank roll as a zerk or warrior and prob got kicked or trolled.

That is how the Tera community is.

5H96Y49G6D · August 2016

^

exactly should read his post twice

I nvr said war/zerks cant tank, but if you are pugging expect ppl to follow the current meta as Lancer/Brawlers are superior tanks so thats waht PUGs will want and plenty lancers/barwlers to choose from.

Obs · August 2016

Krovoc wrote: »

I wouldn't mind having an OP tank that is also fun to play. The more I play my Brawler, the less I like her.

I had wanted to apend something to my previous post, before Will posted, but instead I'll put it here.
Remember, when you try to change out a party member for one that might be better, you are rolling the dice. Will the next one be better? That is really what this thread is about. Not whether or not the Brawler or Lancer have some inherent advantage. I already said that they do, so why debate that? When no one is debating a point, pounding it in further just sounds like a bunch of haters and/or fan-boys circle [filtered]'ing.

Also, I'm not convinced that the Brawler necessarily beats out the Warrior in terms of damage. Zerker, sure, but I'm not convinced on the Warrior-tank DPS vs Brawler DPS. If there is a difference, it is small. The ease at which the Brawler can be played makes it's DPS seem deceptively good. The only disadvantage I see in terms of Warrior vs Brawler in regards to tanking is that the Brawler is MUCH better at dealing with adds. If the Warrior has a decent mechanism for handling them I would love to know about it because I hate adds.

edit: I know my Brawler beats out my Warrior (as does most everyone right now), so I'm not claiming that I'm some uber Warrior-tank. In fact, I wouldn't have been fuming yesterday if I thought I was competent. Just after reading some forum posts, including comments in this thread, I realized that the Warrior damage output as a tank should be pretty good. Switching from A- to D-stance reduces crit factor and power, yes, but the power loss isn't that great, and I'm already crit'ing most of the time anyway. My problem is that my rotation is [filtered]. I've been practicing on IoD BAMs trying to find a good one that doesn't deplete my HP too fast (Combative Strike spam). The biggest issue, I think, is that there are too many things I want to have withing easy reach, and too many skills that have immutable chains.

Brawlers can do over 2m/s on Queen. Warrior tanks can't even pull 1m/s

Viennoiserie · August 2016

Krovoc wrote: »

On the other hand, I queued as DPS about an hour ago on my Warrior, because Warrior DPS is super fun. It's like Ninja, but better. We had one of the many [filtered] Brawler tanks. The party tried to guide him, but to no avail. I took Prima in the first fight, but (and it was my fault) I ended up tanking both. I only wanted one, but I hit both with my shout and the Brawler had no agro. I had never tanked DFNM, or anything higher, as a Warrior. In fact, it was only my second time there as a Warrior, and I am not especially familiar with the class yet. Eventually, the Brawler did peal agro off me (a statement which should never need saying). On the crab, the Brawler did just about everything you could do wrong, so, around 15x health bars (aka 10 minutes later), I said "[filtered] this [filtered], I'm tanking", and which point I disengaged from combat, changed my action bar, glyphs, and swapped out my weapon crystals. I then proceeded to tank the rest of the dungeon correctly. The Brawler on Verno tried blocking the unblockable (in spite of repeatedly telling him he needs to use his iframe), and never (not once) stood in front of Verno, but rather slightly off to the side.]

[OffT]
LOL. I was the healer on that particular run. It's already a given that you should expect the worst in IMS, but...
Most of the time, DPS type classes (new/gearing 65s) don't bother much in prepping for DFNM, especially when using IMS but it gets worse when even tanks do it (i.e. not bothering to glyph correctly, +9 dread or less, incorrect or incomplete crystals, refuses to look up information on/listen to raid mechanics etc.).

With the rate and quality of class "balancing" BHS has been doing, (for me) it's hard to be optimistic that they'll be able to improve on zerk/warrior tanks on stuff that matters (instead of boosting aggro generation only).

5H96Y49G6D · August 2016

depends on server suppose but I know for TR thats a myth.

If we use one particular server to represent the whole and from my limited exp on AV back in the day....servers do have competent tanks.

It's just that they rather do guild runs instead of pugging.
Even if the guild run turns out to be worse than a PUG less griefing, laughs, more chilled.

Nopi · August 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

Snipcats

This guy's commitment to zerker is simply amazing. If I were a fanboy I'd be shedding tears of joy by now. Really. People. We all know Lancers and brawlers are better equipped for tanking than zerkers and warriors. But as I was saying before, more often than not, if the zerk or the warrior wants to tank, he probably knows the class like the back of his hand. Of course we will see potato players of every class, but there's a much bigger chance of finding oneself in a dungeon with a potato brawler than with a potato warrior/zerk, and having to tank as a ninja... >.<

I'm not saying to pick a warr/zerk over the other tanks. All I'm saying is, if there's nobody else, don't assume it's gonna be a worse experience than with a brawler or a lancer.

On a side note, and from what I heard long ago, Tera's first and only tank was the Warrior. He was going to use the "Evasion tank" template without any blocking ability (back then there was no RE bar and no block on D stance). And the initial design of the lancer, for some odd reason, was as a dps. Not as a tank. The world spun, apparently someone on dev team thought the whole evasion tank thing was a bad idea and they made lancer into a tank with a block (that back then used mana because of no RE bar. Also, no evade i-frame) and here we are right now, giving the cold shoulder to the original tank.

Nopi · August 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

@Nopi Thanks nopi :^) but what about some love to the unlovable zerktank?

:winky:

We've got some love for the class. Yes we do. Here's +5 secs of perma aggro after a shout. >.<

Nopi · August 2016

It's not muffins every day for breakfast over there at BHS.

Ccoffee · August 2016

Idk, zerktanking is fun.. but really I'd rather let someone else do it because they yell at me as if there were a real reason.. I've told brawlers to just chill in the back because they spin bosses, and still have people asking me if i would tank because a "more efficient" class can't be found. Please people, play more brawler and lancer and hell even warrior and be dedicated so there's no reason for a zerk to tank. Barring that, don't complain, it makes your face look all screwwy.

Nopi · August 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

@Nopi I'LL GIVE THEM SOME MUFFINS FOR BREAKFAST ALLRIGHT .-. I'LL GIVE THEM SOME BERRY MUFFINS!!!!!

Back on topic: That permanent aggro for 5 seconds can be quite useful since we can change stances every 20 seconds and the cooldown for fiery rage is only 10 seconds when in tank mode. So this can be highly effective in being a back-up tank. So its more useful for berserker as a dual role class. And we can do this mid-battle too. So it is an inadvertent way of cementing their ability to substitute tank. While to the other tanks its just something that is nice for aggro. HOWEVER this fully cements our ability to effectively be a double role with 0% worry of taking aggro quickly during the aggro reset scramble after your tank is incapacitated.

What I was mostly meaning was, why change the aggro formula to require more dps, yet have both your hybrids do much less dps in their tanking stances? Of course every bit helps, though adding more utility could trigger a ripple effect into pvp (unless they add pve only utilities), but when the issue with the hybrids is not really aggro itself, but either lack of dps or utility, the +5 seconds to aggro looks like trying to cool down a volcano by tossing little ice cubes at it one by one. Add that both classes in their dps department also need fixes, mostly zerk, and you get a perfect storm of classes people want to steer away from.

Eishaa · August 2016

@Nopi
@Troyzerk

I Liked like 90% of the stuff you guys said. Really not much I can add to it myself X3

WilLegend · August 2016

I have one question, to gear up a tank character there much difference of costs between the tank classes? And it's more expensive than dpses or healers?

Please stop turning your noses up at Zerker and Warrior tanks.

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