Please stop turning your noses up at Zerker and Warrior tanks.

feazeshero · August 2016

Krovoc wrote: »

First off, I completely understand that both Zerkers and Warriors lack a complete set of tanking skills. Mostly the Zerker, but the Warrior is missing a decent skill to deal with adds. These are indeed handicaps, but that doesn't mean the classes are "maimed". Conversely, just because you have a "real" tank in the party, doesn't mean he knows what the [filtered] he's doing.

What brought this on is two things today. First, this morning, as I once a day, I ran DFNM on my Zerker. I like getting the double VG badges so I make sure all my 65's run it daily. I don't like Zerker DPS, so I queue as tank. As soon as I get in there is talk of gloom and doom, and the party is trying to kick me. The healer was so opposed to this that he let the entire party walk into the first boss fight, sit outside the gate, and let us wipe. We kicked his [filtered], but the point is that people don't care to give an hybrid tank a chance. They would rather be petty even when they fail to kick us at times to the detriment of not just the tank, but the whole party! Needless to say the run went fine. It was my 8th time tanking it as a Zerker, they all have gone well.

On the other hand, I queued as DPS about an hour ago on my Warrior, because Warrior DPS is super fun. It's like Ninja, but better. We had one of the many [filtered] Brawler tanks. The party tried to guide him, but to no avail. I took Prima in the first fight, but (and it was my fault) I ended up tanking both. I only wanted one, but I hit both with my shout and the Brawler had no agro. I had never tanked DFNM, or anything higher, as a Warrior. In fact, it was only my second time there as a Warrior, and I am not especially familiar with the class yet. Eventually, the Brawler did peal agro off me (a statement which should never need saying). On the crab, the Brawler did just about everything you could do wrong, so, around 15x health bars (aka 10 minutes later), I said "[filtered] this [filtered], I'm tanking", and which point I disengaged from combat, changed my action bar, glyphs, and swapped out my weapon crystals. I then proceeded to tank the rest of the dungeon correctly. The Brawler on Verno tried blocking the unblockable (in spite of repeatedly telling him he needs to use his iframe), and never (not once) stood in front of Verno, but rather slightly off to the side.

So please, just because your tank isn't a Brawler or Lancer, don't assume the run will go sideways as soon as you reach the first boss. They may just be able to dance around the mechanics from having done so many times already. My warrior run was the fourth time today I tanked DFNM and the sixth run. That Brawler, as one party member put it, was playing DFNM like he would a leveling dungeon. DFNM is super easy (I think it's easier than KCNM even), but that doesn't mean you can ignore mechanics and the existence of the rest of the party, expecting heals to come out of no where. So always let the tank run a bit before deciding to kick, because you could very possibly do worse.

Also, remember in the case of the Warrior tank, not everything can be blocked, and not everything can even be iframed. Among tanks, they have the most iframe up-time, and are the most mobile. This makes them especially well suited for dealing with mechanics.

[As a non-constructive side rant, how the [filtered] does a newbie, barely geared Warrior (that's me) out agro a Brawler!? What the [filtered]?! Really!]

Yeah this is pretty common sometimes when you have a new tank who has no idea of what they're doing. The problem is most people don't research ahead of their class and what they need to know for their mechanics. Kinda blame the leveling system but still the issue is far beyond that for most. I did the same one time I ended up tanking the crab on my gunner since I always had the highest aggro and I was also using eclipse. The team dps was so bad that I was able to generate aggro all the time with my own dps and brawler could never take it from me and at times was dead.

Even though zerks and warriors lack some things while tanking, they are still better tanks than half of the brawlers tanks out there imo. Half of those people don't know what tanking is and just like the big numbers. All the people who have tanked back in the days as a zerk or warrior are really skilled (ofc lancers as well). Just saying that so many people who try tanking first time, always choose the wrong tanking class imo.

Obs · August 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

... 2m/sec? Are you sure your meter didn't measure for the first 30 seconds of the battle and then stop for the whole battle after that? Or is this a K-Tera brawler?

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeraOnline/comments/4z1dey/what_class_to_choose_next/d6s6ztz

NA

feazeshero · August 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

I am an experienced berserker on Ascension Valley server. Since berserker tank was released, I have successfully tanked every dungeon with minimal utility. I have full +15 imperator with 3% and etchings III on all four armor pieces with rolled accessories, superior innerwear and quatrefoil brooch. I have a full set of dyads with perfect secondary rolls for pve dps, pve tanking, pvp dps for both weapon and chest. I've fully rolled all gear for maximum possible crit. I have a different set of PVP accessories to boot as well.

Edit: I tanked them all multiple times and they were not traps, flukes or luck binge runs that took hours. Not just "one successful run".

Players will still [filtered] hardcore because I am a berserker and am willing to tank when our party simply can't get one. Even with the addition of brawlers, finding one that is skilled enough to even do SSHM or ANY DIFFICULT DUNGEON OF ANY PATCH is [filtered] rare. I successfully tanked every hard mode dungeon up to this point repeatedly. Even with middle tier gears of Schisma, Dreadnaught, Slaughter up to this very point. (mid-tier gear of that current patch. So Schisma for AIHM and such..) Then they are left looking like idiots when I show them that it can be done with the berserker. I find myself HAVING TO TANK very often. YES the run takes a bit longer, but we can atleast PLAY the dungeon rather than waiting 1 hr to find a tanking class.

Main reason players nag about berserker tank?

1. "you have no enrage! wahh wahh wahh!!" they cry.
My Answer: Boss enragement happens on its own as you DPS the boss HP to certain checkpoints. Enragement ends up being something the damage dealers cause more than the tank. It would be NICE to have one enragement for 36 seconds every 5 minutes but if your team depends on an ability that is a 5 minute cooldown in order to complete the battle then you should probably lean on Balder's Vengeance to be your primary dpsing ability. :awesome: Enragement is a nice thing but it only has a small effect once per battle (twice if your team is slow). Majority of the uptime for enragement is the damage dealers pushing that boss HP bar down. Not the tank using a 5 min cd skill.

2. "you have no dps! Because you're a zerk tank! wahh wahh wahh!!" They cry.
My Answer: Since when was it the Tank's job in a role playing game to deal lots of damage? Your a "D.P.S" (Damage Per Second) Dealing damage is what you do. If I am a tank then dealing damage isn't what I should be doing. It should be holding aggro, protecting the team & Just like your healer shouldn't be dealing damage, but healing & supporting.

3. Biggest reason of all else, they rely too much on the tank to be the biggest damage dealer instead of doing it themselves.

Anyways, If you really dislike a berserker or a warrior tanking, Make a [filtered] brawler or lancer and do it yourself. Otherwise just shut up and keep DPSing and let them tank. The only reason that warrior or berserker is probably tanking is because it either takes WAY TOO LONG to que as a dps and they just want to get their runs done, or there is literally just no other tanks around for LFG and all the DPS slots are filled with ninjas that put out 2x the dps with half the gear and skill/experience of other classes. And I say this next statement from experience ---> I played a long time and THERE IS NO REASON for me to go tanking all these hard mode dungeons and [filtered] other than to just get the [filtered] dungeon to just GO! AIHM SSHM ABHM none of it is "optimal" as a zerktank. But if there were tanks available to run these dungeons 24/7 I would never have had to play as a tank with the berserker, ever. But as the reality is they are not always there. I find myself at least 60% of the time with my LFG parties any time of day... with 4/5 party slots filled. My berserker, 2 ninjas and one mystic or priest. No tank... and then another ninja applies to the party geared up with starfall / imp gloves & weapon or whatever. (Everyone is geared well starfall & imp gear) How many of you players (assuming you use a class that can both tank & dps) would just take the ninja and tank the dungeon yourself? Put yourself in the same situation. What would you do? continue to wait for a tank when you see 4 other LFGs of the same dungeon needing a tank as well? or just clear the dungeon by tanking it yourself with a bunch of ninjas in the party in a few minutes?

Troy! One of the best zerks I've known on AV.

I agree with what he mentions here. Most times it's hard to find a tank and waiting 1 hour for one is no good. There are so many lfgs saying N>tank for 30min-1hr at times. I joined an lfg on my lancer for dfhm one time and the leader mentions, "oh, it only took 1 hour to find a tank" lol. I did feel bad but also was not surprised since the lack of tanks out there at times and sometimes people also are asking of me simultaneously to tank stuff for them. What can I do, it's tank life I guess. I can only do so much for everyone.

There are times where it may be impossible to find a tank and its alternate options such as warrior or zerk tank which most people would resort to as the last resort. The runs maybe slower but still viable as long as everyone knows what they're doing. The other thing is if you have a lancer or brawler using infuriate, the party must take advantage of this or is it a pure waste of 36-37 sec(ex: when people start dying or just not enough dps). I also can't tell you guys how often I see my lancer out dps'ing other dps members in the party. It's either them depending on me to carry them (which is really painful at times) or they are just not good as dps. And I'm talking 750k/s-1m avg, about 25-35 percent of the team dps, sometimes 40 percent. A lancer can only do well depending on the skill/comp of the party. Anything less is asking for a long night.

I've seen a zerk tank queen in dreadspire uppers 22, which was amazing. The damage is actually pretty insane coming from d-stance zerk. In general to find someone who knows how to tank is key, whether it's on zerk, warrior, lancer or brawler.

Nopi · August 2016

WilLegend wrote: »

I have one question, to gear up a tank character there much difference of costs between the tank classes? And it's more expensive than dpses or healers?

Someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but to me the costs might be similar, since most of the gear is pretty much similar. Those who go for +15 will have their huge gold sink in the whole +15-ing their gear. That doesn't change for tanks, healers nor DPS. You want top end play? You want BiS. And BiS, unless prices on broker go haywire in favor of one role or the other, may be pretty similar since making a +15 staff is every bit as RNG and as painful as making a sword or a lance. And with so many DPS classes, the prices may not favor one role over the other too much. And that's about weapons. The rest of the gear is shared between healers, DPS and tanks so pricing should be even more similar. In count, two tanks, one hybrid tank and one dps use metal. Two healers and two dps are on cloth, and one hybrid tank and the rest of the dps classes use leather.

Ocean170 · August 2016

Dont know about a tank zerk dps but warrior tanks usually do [filtered] damage, as in super SUPER low, with a good party i usually see warrior tanks do less than 10% dmg yet hold argo, that same warrior can do around 30% dmg if they were in A Stance , a warrior tanking has really horrible dps, though i havent checked dps lately cuz no one as warrior tanks again, and i sure as hell wont be tanking again on warrior though they used to be really fun to tank on.

Nopi · August 2016

Ocean170 wrote: »

Dont know about a tank zerk dps but warrior tanks usually do [filtered] damage, as in super SUPER low, with a good party i usually see warrior tanks do less than 10% dmg yet hold argo, that same warrior can do around 30% dmg if they were in A Stance , a warrior tanking has really horrible dps, though i havent checked dps lately cuz no one as warrior tanks again, and i sure as [filtered] wont be tanking again on warrior though they used to be really fun to tank on.

That's why two important things should happen. First. The devs should end their insecurities about the hybrid tanks. Do they think that hybrids will become OP if they are made to do both of their jobs (tanking and dps) decently? The second thing that should happen is that players playing those classes should go for full dps builds and play aggressively on d-stance/Intimidation to at least alleviate their lack of dps a bit. They will also gain the extra utility of being able to off tank without having to change gear (though glyphs may be an issue if you have different sets for tanking and dps).

StevenAnthony · August 2016

i know brawler is no class, but, please, dont called "casual tanks"

wait a minute,

o berzeker......., BHs dont gave them enough skills/buff for be tanks, you can be, but they dont need you, very simple xD

Bonbongaming · August 2016

Back in my day they used to say that lancers were going obsolete because warrior tanks were so much better. Kidding. But seriously, the dps meta in this game has gone a lot further than I thought it would ever go. Coming back to this game and seeing these changes. I get that capitalizing on dps as much as possible is a great thing but the imbalance it has caused, not just on the dps side.. because let's face it, those newer classes are pretty face roll.. but on the tanking side as well? I don't believe I have ever seen such disparity between tank classes in a game before to the point where people don't even want to run with certain tanks.. Warriors all the way!

WilLegend · August 2016

Well, maybe we just need more dungeons with the first DF boss mechanics which need a secondary tank, then zerker and warrior could shine. We have 4 classes who can queue as tanks and 2 healers and the game still lacking of tanks more than healers (at least at my server) there is something wrong I guess...

5H96Y49G6D · August 2016

^
Responsibility and griefing

Bad tank n pug = automatic kick
Bad tank n guild run = automatic disband after couple wipes

Then you get blacklisted, also its annoying when DPS tell you how to tank like really.....they think everything is just magic

5H96Y49G6D · August 2016

I don't pug anymore and wen I do 4/5 all guildies usually.
Was just explaining part of it why lack of tanks.

You need a real thick skin since tanks are always blamed for failed runs.

TWMagimay · August 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

1. "you have no enrage! wahh wahh wahh!!" they cry.
My Answer: Boss enragement happens on its own as you DPS the boss HP to certain checkpoints. Enragement ends up being something the damage dealers cause more than the tank. It would be NICE to have one enragement for 36 seconds every 5 minutes but if your team depends on an ability that is a 5 minute cooldown in order to complete the battle then you should probably lean on Balder's Vengeance to be your primary dpsing ability. :awesome: Enragement is a nice thing but it only has a small effect once per battle (twice if your team is slow). Majority of the uptime for enragement is the damage dealers pushing that boss HP bar down. Not the tank using a 5 min cd skill.

Proper enrage by the tank can easily be the difference between smooth animation lock burn and a chaotic half-burn in some cases. Newer bosses tend to have longer % gaps between natural enrages and filling even just one of those with a forced enrage can be important. Sure, top tier DDs don't need that but then again top tier DDs also don't need to settle for a zerk tank.

2. "you have no dps! Because you're a zerk tank! wahh wahh wahh!!" They cry.
My Answer: Since when was it the Tank's job in a role playing game to deal lots of damage? Your a "D.P.S" (Damage Per Second) Dealing damage is what you do. If I am a tank then dealing damage isn't what I should be doing. It should be holding aggro, protecting the team & Just like your healer shouldn't be dealing damage, but healing & supporting.

I'm seriously starting to doubt your experience in tera. Dps has always been a part of tanking. Before all the new tanks, one of the main thing people compared when deciding between lancer and warrior was the tank's dps output and whether it could make up for lack of other skills or not. Even 3 years ago the best tanks used to run dps builds and hold aggro with that instead of threat crystals. How can you sit there and claim that dps is not part of the tanking role when tank dps has been increasing for years now?! From the addition of Wallop to the Wrathful crystals, tanking has always been very much based on dps.

3. Biggest reason of all else, they rely too much on the tank to be the biggest damage dealer instead of doing it themselves.

Never seen a DD say that. Ever. Only people who talk about tanks being the biggest damage dealers are...tanks.

5H96Y49G6D · September 2016

So literal

Think 3 refers to how community judges quality of tanks regardless what gear or glyph build the tank uses.

If we going into specifics:

-DPS build is the absolute best, but can only use it if you are in VM gear.
-Slaughter the best optimal build is the hybrid DMG/Aggro glyph build (100% damage build not optimal for Slaughter lancers)

Now we look at Teras meta

A good tank does 1m+ /s
An avg tank does 700-800k/ s
A crap tank does <700k/s

1m/s is not biggest but it means people expect tanks to fulfill the missing DPS role in M/P parties and anything less is scrub. People look at speed runs and assume every lancer can do same. Completely ignoring the fact that to do that insane amount of DPS other factors outside tanks control are at play and those are near perfect runs recorded after many many wipes or [filtered] ups.

You can't eliminate Human error stuff.

TWMagimay · September 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

@TWMagimay

1.The same dungeon can still be finished. I pointed out enragement isn't REQUIRED. It is useful but not something that you can't complete the dungeon without. Only high tier static parties will never have to settle for a tank because their tank will be there 100% of the time. But be realistic, there is only a few statics on a server that can actually run that regularly. Every other party usually gets anywhere from 2/5 to 4/5 members that are statics or friends and sitting in LFGs waiting 30 mins to 1 hr for a tank to join when 3 or 4 other LFGs also need tanks as well. If you would rather wait an extra 30 minutes - 1 hr to get a lancer or brawler only for your run rather than just launching it immediately since theres 10 ninjas applying to your 4/5 party with starfall & imp weapons +15 then that is your preference. I'd rather just take the ninja and finish the SSHM lfg in 20 minutes tanking it myself.

You can finish a dungeon without a lot of stuff. Heck, you can finish a dungeon without a tank to begin with. Doesn't mean people can't complain about the lack of things that make a big difference. And, yes, I'd rather wait longer than go with a subpar tank and be annoyed at all the things that go wrong.

2. 3 years ago the tanks did only a small portion of the damage. You don't need to dish out seven metric tons of damage to be a tank. The only parts of tanking in TERA are holding aggro, supporting your team & positioning the boss. Everything else is simply "extra cherries on top" for a tank just to make them more attractive. It is not a necessity. The fact that the zerk tank can hold aggro without being #1 dps on the meter shows that. Even the guys that ran dps builds the damage dealers dealt 3x the damage of the tanks. Now it is roughly even or in the brawlers case they can deal more. Anyways, 3 years ago tanking was more threat & support based than damage and you said "The best tanks" which means only a handful of people went for a DPS setup most of them went for aggro and the extra damage they dealt wasn't even necessary. Now its damage & support based even agro accessories got removed from the game entirely. Agro has pretty much been thrown out the window. Go and look up the current agro formula in TERA. The official announcement went something like this "The brawler is the direction we wish to take towards tanking in TERA". Upon release it was a tank that purely depended on outputting more damage than the DPS to keep aggro instead of increasing their threat levels with shouts, glyphs and other attention grabbing skills.

The best tanks, as in, the tanks who understood how Tera works have always gone for dps over aggro. The tanks who didn't bother to experiment or research and just applied their previous MMO mechanics went for threat/aggro. But at least you agree that damage is a big part of tanking and considering it is perfectly justified.

3. ... Ok. So basically you just said it's opinionated. Tanks say they deal the best damage. And you implied that DD's say they deal the best damage.

I said no such thing. What I said was that I haven't seen a single DD expect a tank to carry the damage(which was your claim, in case you forgot) and the only people I've seen talk about tank dps potential were actual tanks. As in, the ones who truly care about tanks outdpsing DDs are tanks, not DDs.

Most of all above all else for my reply to you: I think you missed out on the title of this thread. It said "Stop turning your noses up at Zerk and Warrior tanks". It was already acknowledged multiple times that the lancer and brawler are superior tanks. And you just talked about how much of a big deal it is for the tank to dish out as much damage as they possibly can. Implying how the brawler/lancer are better.

I didn't miss the point of the topic. I was replying to your attempt at mocking people who don't want a zerk tank and your attempt to minimise the reason for it(the whole "wah wah wah" thing you decided to do when faced with valid criticism). It's quite simple. People have the right to "turn their noses up" at classes that are not optimal or efficient. Just like they did when mystics were a sorry excuse for a healer, just like they did to various underpowered DD classes over the years. As a friend recently said "I admire people who stick to their class when it sucks but, end of the day, if you want to be widely accepted and useful, reroll".

TWMagimay · September 2016

Troyzerk wrote: »

In my case I already know I can tank any dungeon just fine so if we end up waiting more than 30 minutes I just recruit one of the many ninjas scattered across every server like hydrogen and clear the dungeon. I've had a couple people go "OMG A ZERK TANK?! /drop party" the second i recruit another player and they see im the tank. Those are the specific people I had in mind to mock. I don't go out of my way to tank. I always try to look for a lancer/brawler/warrior tank first. Sometimes they just aren't there... so I just tank myself just to get the dungeon rolling.

I should have been more specific though with the people i intended to mock.

Have you ever considered, I don't know, telling the party before recruiting one of those ninjas? Letting them know that you do know how to tank and they are not in for a 2h painful run will probably reduce the amount of people dropping. If I'm in a party like that, I'd leave also. Because, form the other person's perspective, you are some random zerk who thinks he can tank just because he has block. They have no idea you can actually pull it off. And I've met zerks who thought block makes them tanks, even before the zerk tank patch, I had an IM run in Kezeel's Gorge where the zerk decided he'll equip full threat cruxes and tank it. One bad experience is enough to make people question when somebody decides he's a tank out of the blue.

Please stop turning your noses up at Zerker and Warrior tanks.

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