[TERA PC & Console] En Masse is closing, but TERA lives on! We will continue to support TERA PC (NA) and TERA Console until service is transferred. Stay tuned for more information.
[TERA Console] The Grotto of Lost Souls update (v85) is now live! Read the patch notes here: https://bit.ly/TERACon_v85

[TERA PC] The 64-bit update (v97) is now live. Check out all the changes delivered on August 11 here: https://bit.ly/tera64_patchnotes
[TERA PC & CONSOLE] Summerfest Part 2: The Beach Bash is on from August 11 until September 1! Participate in event activities to earn tokens redeemable for costumes, consumables, mounts, and more! Details: https://bit.ly/tera_sf20

Please stop turning your noses up at Zerker and Warrior tanks.

1246789

Comments

  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    @TWMagimay I have full +15 imperator and am known on my ascension valley server. Scroll through the thread and you'll see a renowned lancer acknowledge me earlier in the thread. I do tell the party that I am going to tank. I have full dyads for PVP full dyads for PVE full dyads for tanking and dpsing in pve with perfect secondary rolls and a quatrefoil brooch with full shademaze/shadowvein rolled for full critical with 3% masterwork and full III etchings. Geared to the teeth and skilled in all dungeons with a multitude of previous successful runs that weren't trappy at all.
    I know how to tank. The same singular bad exp can be said for any player or class really.

    So, you tell the party you are going to tank, they are fine with it, you recruit a DD and then one of the people who were aware that you are going to tank reacts with "zomg, zerk tank" and drops. Do you often play with people who have severe short term memory problems?
  • feazesherofeazeshero ✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    5H96Y49G6D wrote: »
    Now we look at Teras meta

    A good tank does 1m+ /s
    An avg tank does 700-800k/ s
    A crap tank does <700k/s

    1m/s is not biggest but it means people expect tanks to fulfill the missing DPS role in M/P parties and anything less is scrub. People look at speed runs and assume every lancer can do same. Completely ignoring the fact that to do that insane amount of DPS other factors outside tanks control are at play and those are near perfect runs recorded after many many wipes or [filtered] ups.

    You can't eliminate Human error stuff.

    Saying that a tank is good, average or crap based on their dps is really not a good thing to judge a tank on. Sure we expect tanks to do certain amount of damage but there are other areas they are judged on as well. For tanks to do a lot of damage, it's heavily dependent on the skill of the party and the composition. Stuff like how good the dps is so it reaches boss next enrage timer, how good people keep up debuff uptimes, and how things go at a boss (when things mess up, things are bad). Of course human error is normal and it happens but when things go perfect, a good tank can do really well.

    The meta is just not how much dps a tank can out put but how good of a tank he/she is overall. There is a lot involved for a tank to be real good. Being a good dps lancer for example is like an amazing thing to achieve imo but takes a lot of learning to reach that once someone learned lancer pretty well. I understand some tanks don't do much damage while others do a lot. Does this separate them from the other tanks? Probably but they may be really good in other areas. Just saying that if a tank does less than 700k/s and saying their crap, doesn't really mean they are bad. There are other areas that affect that which isn't the tanks fault most times. Now if the party is amazing and tank does that amount where it should be higher, then you can critique the tank based on its damage assuming they do good on other areas.

    So for me as lancer I can average about ~700-800k/s on my most of my runs and if lucky I can reach 900k/s and close to 1m sometimes. Does that say I'm a crap tank? I also average somewhere between 27-40 percent team dps. Most of my parties are about average or good but not godly like other parties. I reached 989k/s at 1st boss sshm just few days ago, which was my best ever and it was just with a good party. I think if there were very godly dps in the party, they help reach the next enrage timer much faster, helping lancer to keep up its dps more; that's what I believe. And 786k/s (41 percent of team dps) at Imperator, which I think is really good considering the two times I can't attack during shield phases. And my parties like I said are mostly average to good.
  • RyouRyou ✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    @TWMagimay
    2. 3 years ago the tanks did only a small portion of the damage. You don't need to dish out seven metric tons of damage to be a tank. The only parts of tanking in TERA are holding aggro, supporting your team & positioning the boss. Everything else is simply "extra cherries on top" for a tank just to make them more attractive. It is not a necessity. The fact that the zerk tank can hold aggro without being #1 dps on the meter shows that. Even the guys that ran dps builds the damage dealers dealt 3x the damage of the tanks. Now it is roughly even or in the brawlers case they can deal more. Anyways, 3 years ago tanking was more threat & support based than damage and you said "The best tanks" which means only a handful of people went for a DPS setup most of them went for aggro and the extra damage they dealt wasn't even necessary. Now its damage & support based even agro accessories got removed from the game entirely. Agro has pretty much been thrown out the window. Go and look up the current agro formula in TERA. The official announcement went something like this "The brawler is the direction we wish to take towards tanking in TERA". Upon release it was a tank that purely depended on outputting more damage than the DPS to keep aggro instead of increasing their threat levels with shouts, glyphs and other attention grabbing skills.

    As someone who played (plays) warrior tank the fact that it's even come to this is absurd and absolutely stupid.

    Back when I last played in SCHM I don't remember the specifics but I was doing over 10% of DPS and that was good for the time, and I had to work to make sure that aggro was maintained. I had +15 aggro gloves, the aggro brooch, +15 swords that were spec'd for highest aggro damage...

    I think at that time, tanking was balanced. If you were good you could do some fun things, and it honestly baffles me why they threw it out the window for this garbage we have now.

    It's no skill braindead tanking that is king now. No tact or skill required. Don't even have to care what direction you face cause bosses don't push you anymore. Nah in SCHM you had to face a certain direction or you get pushed into the wall and die, now just plant your stupid brawler anywhere and spam braindead skills.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    As a friend recently said "I admire people who stick to their class when it sucks but, end of the day, if you want to be widely accepted and useful, reroll".

    Sad. This type of thinking is what keeps the FOTM machine rolling and tells the devs it's ok to nerf older classes to the ground in order to milk more cash from people through new FOTM stuff. My opinion, though.

  • Nopi wrote: »
    .
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    As a friend recently said "I admire people who stick to their class when it sucks but, end of the day, if you want to be widely accepted and useful, reroll".

    Sad. This type of thinking is what keeps the FOTM machine rolling and tells the devs it's ok to nerf older classes to the ground in order to milk more cash from people through new FOTM stuff. My opinion, though.

    And that's how we got huurrr durrr brawler and huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu iframe goooo Ninja.

    It has to get as bad as Sorc before they do anything apparently. Too bad they probably look at warriors and go "EHHHH they can dps" and just continue to ignore how [filtered] it is. A good start for warrior is to let them use A-stance and D-stance at the same time.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nopi wrote: »
    .
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    As a friend recently said "I admire people who stick to their class when it sucks but, end of the day, if you want to be widely accepted and useful, reroll".

    Sad. This type of thinking is what keeps the FOTM machine rolling and tells the devs it's ok to nerf older classes to the ground in order to milk more cash from people through new FOTM stuff. My opinion, though.

    How does the consequence of an action cause the action exactly?
  • It's a cycle, if FoTM classes get played more, then statistics say that they should be prioritized when something new happens so that the majority of players feel the effect. Since the players who still play the old classes are feeling hurt, they go and play the new classes. When they go and play the new classes we see statistics showing more people playing the new classes, and repeat the cycle!

    I'm both happy and sad nexon is in charge tho, Nexon likes to revamp the older classes in games. Constantly. but r.i.p. unique race animations, that's what's standing in the way of more revamps and classes
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Nopi wrote: »
    Sad. This type of thinking is what keeps the FOTM machine rolling and tells the devs it's ok to nerf older classes to the ground in order to milk more cash from people through new FOTM stuff. My opinion, though.
    There are multiple reasons why this is completely wrong. Firstly, it is standard practice for devs to release not only classes, but even bosses/monsters tuned slightly higher. No one is going to play a new class if it's weak, and as such, it's actually better for it to be slightly stronger, then toned back down. The same even happens for new instances as well, they are released harder and typically made easier after a while. There is more harm when a dungeon is too easy than when one is slightly too difficult. Secondly, older classes have been receiving nothing but buffs while "new" (since apparently reaper/gunner still gets called "new") has mostly received nerfs. If Ninja is considered op, then why isn't Warrior considered op when the class provides an endurance debuff (and switching to dstance for enraged is still a thing) for the group while dealing nearly as much damage, on top of being better at surviving? Also, playing a fotm and being mediocre (or worse) with the class is a good way to not get accepted into groups by the way. Playing a class that deals high damage means anyone with a meter expects said high damage, and if you fail to meet said expectation then be prepared for a group of people to never want to see you again.
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Nopi wrote: »
    .
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    As a friend recently said "I admire people who stick to their class when it sucks but, end of the day, if you want to be widely accepted and useful, reroll".

    Sad. This type of thinking is what keeps the FOTM machine rolling and tells the devs it's ok to nerf older classes to the ground in order to milk more cash from people through new FOTM stuff. My opinion, though.

    How does the consequence of an action cause the action exactly?

    @ TWMagimay look up Self fufilling prophecy. BHS: "More players play as female classes so we release more female classes" as an example that anyone who plays TERA can easily understand if you don't get it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy
    It basically says an expectation (or belief of something to be true) promotes actions that in turn cause said expectation (or belief) to become a reality. Such as saying something will (or did) fail, and then you (or others around you) make decisions that causes said failure to happen (or become true).

    The fact of Elin being the most popular race did not align with the expectation of the developers. While yes, a female was expected to do well for NA for an example, how ever that was Female Castanic. Elin was expected to be ignored, however, reality did not align with that expectation. Elin went on to being the most picked race, even for classes where other races were actually better than Elin. Keep in mind, these numbers for Elin being the most popular in NA occurred long before Reaper was even added. The multiple Elin locked classes, and ultimately female classes, is a consequence of the fact the majority preferred female characters. Even from a cultural expectation, Elin would not be popular, yet it still happened anyways.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    @TWMagimay I have full +15 imperator and am known on my ascension valley server. Scroll through the thread and you'll see a renowned lancer acknowledge me earlier in the thread. I do tell the party that I am going to tank. I have full dyads for PVP full dyads for PVE full dyads for tanking and dpsing in pve with perfect secondary rolls and a quatrefoil brooch with full shademaze/shadowvein rolled for full critical with 3% masterwork and full III etchings. Geared to the teeth and skilled in all dungeons with a multitude of previous successful runs that weren't trappy at all.
    I know how to tank. The same singular bad exp can be said for any player or class really.

    So, you tell the party you are going to tank, they are fine with it, you recruit a DD and then one of the people who were aware that you are going to tank reacts with "zomg, zerk tank" and drops. Do you often play with people who have severe short term memory problems?

    No. I sometimes find players who keep turning their noses up at zerk tanks and warrior tanks. That is the point of this thread Sir, to stop doing that. I announce "Ok im gonna tank. This random ninja with good gear and skilled tag applied to the PUG sshm. we have been waiting for 30 mins so I'll be the tank since there aren't any right now." Then then they either stay or leave. Most of the time everyone stays out of pure curiosity of how a berserker can effectively tank since it is quite a rare sight on the battlefield. Same to those warrior brothers out there who master all of their class skills to their full potential O7 i give you the Zerker Salute my hybrid brothers & sisters. But there are some people who are spoiled rotten and cannot stand to have anything other than optimal party builds, even when it is not reasonable that they'll even form that optimal party for whatever conditions. Sure I like a brawler or lancer to tank instead of me but they aren't always there all the time.

    It would be easier to keep track of your point if you weren't constantly changing it. First it was about a lot of players not being keen on zerk tanks. Then it became about players being surprised by your decision to tank and dropping the party. Now, it seems, they are no longer being surprised by it, just a minority of players choose to leave the party after you offer to tank.

    Also, calling people who don't want suboptimal classed in the party "spoiled rotten" is beyond spoiled, rotten and selfish. I did AB HM(when it first came out) in a 2 sorc party. Do you have any idea how hard that was on the healer? No, of course you don't. In your mind, you are entitled to play the class you want and anyone who doesn't want to be subjected to that is a bad guy. How dare they consider their own fun before thinking of what you want and like.

    As for the self-fulfilling prophecy... You do realise more people were playing female classes BEFORE they released reaper, right? It's not like prior to reaper everybody was rocking a male aman and then BHS was like "let's make it elin". And if your choice of class becomes a detriment to the party and the enjoyment of others, they have every right to reject you. You can stick to it as much as you like but if you are not pulling your own weight and performing at an acceptable level, that's your problem. It applies to class, skill, gear, build. Suck it up or reroll, don't expect others to bow to you just because you are really good at being suboptimal.
  • Warrior tank is viable so long as the warrior has the right build for it. To hold aggro against good +15 imp dps WTanks need to stack as much crit as possible to make scythe crit from the front. This means carving dyad + Shademaze/Shadowvain combo + at least one Keen III etching + Crit gold inners + crit glyph + crit rootstock food IE lamb. The way aggro currently works if scythe whitehits twice in a row you lose aggro against competent dps. Just how it is desu senpai.

    Zerker tank is a for fun thing that has never been viable since its creation. You absolutely need infuriate in any serious high end run. Feel free to IMS DF though.

  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    @TWMagimay Way to completely miss a lot of my text Sir. You didn't see where I said "even if it is not reasonable that they will form that optimal party for whatever conditions". Let us not turn this nice guys thread into a personal argument. We can take these things to private messages if you prefer so we don't fill the thread with irrelevant information besides zerk tanking / warrior tanking. This is could easily spiral off-topic. I never said for anyone to bow down to me. I don't force them to leave or make any decisions that are unwilling. If they stay, they stay. Leave? They left. Its that simple. They may choose their parties as they wish and if isn't to their liking (which would be optimal classes only in this case) they leave and I can have whatever thoughts that I please about someone dropping a party. Yes I mock them for doing that. Because this sort of behavior is exactly what the thread title means to discourage people from doing. Which shows I am in agreement with it. Is mocking appropriate to do? No its uncivilized. But some of the crude humor can be funny to a few people. :awesome:

    I was under the impression that this is a discussion, not a place for zerk tanks to pat each on the back without getting interrupted by the other side.
    My response: Those all seem to be under the same point. Not being keen on zerk tanks, being surprised or displeased by my decision to take the tank position for the party. Even the part where the minority of players leave the party. Only so every once and awhile does someone drop from the party with outright disgust and refusal towards having a berserker / warrior tank in the party. When I typed there that was my own personal experience. Anyone who hasn't seen a berserker tank if I have to give the most general possible attitude towards most players that I had not played with yet when I offer to tank is usually "Ok. Well lets see if he can. If he can't then kick if he can't and get a real tank. It will not be as pretty as a brawler/lancer tank run but lets see if it works.". And I always deliver solid. Other players who are less experienced and geared with berserker and warrior tanks would obviously perform to a lesser degree. But I am well known on my server for being able to fulfill both of the roles of my class with great performance. So you could call it biased and when they inspect and see full BiS gear on each piece that could also create a bit more bias in someones willingness to allow me to tank. (like if you saw a starfall warrior saying they could tank and then saw a slaughter warrior saying they can tank. You'd probably believe the SF one but not the slaughter one. Due to gear as an example. Call it prejudgement I guess) But even then when I have shown that I can do the tanking just fine there are still those people who outright refuse. Even when there aren't any other options to go with they'd rather just not play the dungeon all together. I've already given examples of when tanks aren't present and I already told you I take time to search for a more "optimal" tank for the party.

    You were talking about the same people the entire time. Yet, their numbers and reactions kept changing from post to post.
    My response: Can you explain to me why you or other party members at the time didn't simply select your party members in a more optimal manner as you have been seemingly suggesting?

    Because we were a static and there were benefits to getting vm3.5 for the sorcs as, at that point, sorcs were still bringing a lot to the table in other dungeons. It was a decision made by friends to help friends.
    I can say the exact same thing right back at you for making such a hypocritical statement after talking about the x2 sorc run in ABHM. So in your mind are you entitled to make others play the classes you think are the best ones in the game performance-wise? How dare I consider tanking for everyone else so we can get the dungeon going and not keep everyone waiting on a tank that may take hours to find. Do you know how hard it is on the zerkers and warriors to tank? No, of course you don't.

    Except I never tried to convince people that they should put up with my class choices nor did I go to the forum to insult those who didn't. I maintain a number of geared chars and swap between them based on the needs of the party. If I feel that a certain class I have will not perform as well as a different class(or char), I either switch or accept that I don't get to go this time.
    I think it was a great thing for that healer to not leave the party immediately and go "IM NOT PLAYING WITH THOSE SORCS!!! THEY HAVE TO BE THE BEST IN SLOT DPS OF THE PATCH OR IM NOT HEALING!!". Sure it was probably trappy, slow, difficult, annoying. But if you flip the class side situation and made DPS players the more difficult ones to find with heals and tanks being plentiful, then it is the same situation. They were the only dps around and it was either them or nothing else and no dungeon at all. Granted DPS in this game are the plentiful ones and tanks/heals are always the hard ones to find but the hypothetical situation still stands valid. That healer may not want to play with any sorc as a DPS ever again if they failed. Should they prove themselves skilled enough to pass the "clear dungeon" bar then he may not dislike them so intensely. I would not say this healer would grow a preference for the sorc as a dps in this situation but now he knows they aren't completely unable. And realistically speaking, not everyone plays the game the same way. You probably change to a new alt every new patch to the most buffed character available in-game and grab BiS gear. I picked the berserker, my favorite class and stuck with it.

    The healer was well aware of what he was getting into and was perfectly OK with it. Plenty of other healers flat out refused to deal with sorcs in that dungeon yet, hypocritical as I am, I never called them "spoiled rotten", I didn't do baby crying noises when they presented their reasons for refusing to put up with sorcs, I didn't sit down and explain to them just how awesome and famous I am and how they have to accept me or I'll go to the forum and call them names. But, hey, I'm sure I'm the entitled one and not you.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Yamazuki wrote: »
    There are multiple reasons why this is completely wrong. Firstly, it is standard practice for devs to release not only classes, but even bosses/monsters tuned slightly higher. No one is going to play a new class if it's weak, and as such, it's actually better for it to be slightly stronger, then toned back down. The same even happens for new instances as well, they are released harder and typically made easier after a while. There is more harm when a dungeon is too easy than when one is slightly too difficult. Secondly, older classes have been receiving nothing but buffs while "new" (since apparently reaper/gunner still gets called "new") has mostly received nerfs. If Ninja is considered op, then why isn't Warrior considered op when the class provides an endurance debuff (and switching to dstance for enraged is still a thing) for the group while dealing nearly as much damage, on top of being better at surviving? Also, playing a fotm and being mediocre (or worse) with the class is a good way to not get accepted into groups by the way. Playing a class that deals high damage means anyone with a meter expects said high damage, and if you fail to meet said expectation then be prepared for a group of people to never want to see you again.

    I understand your points, though I still stand by mine. Sure, doesn't mean I can't be wrong. And I believe even opinions can be wrong. I was mainly addressing the other poster's quote from his friend about telling people to reroll if their class becomes less powerful than something else. Through that thinking, every tank should be a Brawler (or Lancer if they already got better) every dps should be a ninja and every healer should be a mystic. Would be the classes version of what people already thinks about class setups and rotations(you know the whole "there's only one best rotation" and all that stuff).

    Personally I'd reroll only if I myself am not happy with something about the class. Be it how it plays or my performance on it. But rerolling simply because other classes are stronger? Because others want me to reroll? No. Damm me to heII but that's not how I operate. :) And I still believe that big or small, what people play as the most does have a factor in what the devs do. You and I agree that the devs do, or should, fix the game and it's contents in ways the majority like, or risk losing people and money. And yes, sometimes even if it means tossing balance out the window.
  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    @TWMagimay Ok. So mostly all you've talked about on this thread so far is how there are superior options to what is available. The point of the thread was to encourage people to stop turning their noses up at warrior / berserker tanks. Is there anything in the game that you use that isn't top tier? What is your whole statement on the thing if you can sum it up?

    If your character is suboptimal, people have the right to reject you. Asking to be accepted while mocking the reasons others give for not accepting you is the absolute worst way to go about it. Meet people, prove yourself to them, play the way to you want with people who are OK with it. But don't expect everyone to be OK with it.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Troyzerk wrote: »
    @TWMagimay Ok. So mostly all you've talked about on this thread so far is how there are superior options to what is available. The point of the thread was to encourage people to stop turning their noses up at warrior / berserker tanks. Is there anything in the game that you use that isn't top tier? What is your whole statement on the thing if you can sum it up?

    If your character is suboptimal, people have the right to reject you. Asking to be accepted while mocking the reasons others give for not accepting you is the absolute worst way to go about it. Meet people, prove yourself to them, play the way to you want with people who are OK with it. But don't expect everyone to be OK with it.

    The game is set so everyone can reject everyone. I think that while this thread may have some pepper on it (not salt) coming from OP's way of speaking, the main message to me is not to impose classes currently deemed inferior into other people's faces. It is more to give awareness that other than FOTM, there's something else out there and there's people who plays those classes well. A message that, if people are rejecting a class just because someone else told them so and they themselves could accept it if they saw it with their own eyes, well, people should see stuff with their own eyes to see if they like or not.

    Though in the end, it's the choice of people to accept the message as well. This thread should tell people, "we are here too." Or something like that.
  • Game is getting boring thanks to some people.
    Save your elitist/pro thinking to your own static please.
    Possibility is what make a game fun.

    Oh and do DFNM really need a tank... +15 already... why bother having a tank or not in IMS...
    IMS not your static... stop freaking limit what other like to play as long as they doing what their role need to do.

    2m/s brawler on queen... how many able to put it? is this happen in IMS or static?
Sign In or Register to comment.