Are There Balancing Issues in Tera?

BanishLancer · October 2016

I pretty much did all the quest content when I went back to it for getting my Champion Laurel (Champ Laurel in 1 month 2 weeks from a fresh new character, I need a life), but pretty much avoided it until then. (The "Tours of Duty" was the last thing I did on the list to Champion Laurel).

In fact, if it wasn't for that, there wouldn't be any incentive for me to actually go and do any of the quest content at all.

I think the biggest "balancing" issue is actually definitely the experience barrier from new Level 65's into more experienced Level 65's. For example there's a big difference between someone who knows how to iFrame properly, or even what an iFrame is. Pre level 65 doesn't really prepare you for that. Sure, you have some sort of idea what rotations to use for your class, a general idea of what your role is, and sorta what to do, but stepping into Timescape or Forsaken Island for the first time, and suddenly there's these things you don't understand and people start getting mad at you for not "iFraming" or knowing mechanics... Wait there's mechanics? I actually have to pay attention to the map and not faceroll my class again? Hard Mode comes, I'm ready! Wait, where's my indicators? Wait, there's no indicators for every attack? What is this?

I've actually had people say that in dungeons before, that they didn't understand why they couldn't block a certain attack, because pre Level 65 every attack is blockable. I've had to refrain myself from telling people "Just watch a guide" (even though that's what you SHOULD do) just because I have to remember that I was there once too.

I definitely feel it can be degrading and I've been on both ends of the spectrum: causing a 2 hour dungeon run time because I don't know what to do and having 0 clue what iFrame even meant, to being the only one in the group that knows everything and having run multiple groups through 2-3 hour long Timescape / FI runs to teach new players what to do and what iFrames are on their class. And these things aren't exactly told by the game. In fact I've had DPS (new DPS) surprised by the fact that they get more damage from staying in the back of a boss, and surprised when I recommend correct crystals.

And to no fault of the quest system or anything like that, but you're kinda just thrown into the lions den post 65 with a pat on the back saying "Good luck" and only praying that you don't get chewed out too much because it can be degrading to newer players if they constantly get kicked from groups and parties.

It's a learning experience, I get that, but I feel maybe some integration pre 65 of some interesting dungeon mechanics (unblockable attacks, maybe some easier carpet mechanics) could really spice up the gameplay and get people ready for the seriousness of post 65 dungeons while adding an actual challenge to pre-65 gameplay.

7K9Y6TWJE7 · October 2016

All these are great points. Shelving the balancing issue, since I feel that you've all done so well at debunking them mostly, I feel the main issue with this is the outcry against the game for being to hard causing the decrease in difficulty.

It is an MMO, you are *supposed* to tackle things together as a team. You are *supposed* to be challenged. If you didn't want to work in a team, why even join an MMO in the first place?

spagthetapdancer · October 2016

honestly, I rather like the questing in this game. Especially post-40. but I mostly took my time on my brawler(chinking away at it over about 5 days, would have been 2-3 if I hadn't intentionally slowed down and stopped running dungeons until I'd finished the corresponding zone) and my slayer is 47 after 2 days of questing. I could have just spammed dungeons but I kind of want to tackle all of the quest chains and this leveling pace is about what I'm used to.

But had I grinded dungeons or kumas royale, I'd be about 8 levels ahead of my quests right now, which is like 3-4 quest zones. that's what happened on my brawler and it annoyed the hell out of me.

Esteemed wrote: »

I've actually had people say that in dungeons before, that they didn't understand why they couldn't block a certain attack, because pre Level 65 every attack is blockable. I've had to refrain myself from telling people "Just watch a guide" (even though that's what you SHOULD do) just because I have to remember that I was there once too.

I'm going to have to disagree on the bolded part. I should be able to learn a dungeon's fights through experimentation and observation without relying on metagaming and you should not have the right to pressure me into doing so just because I arrived on site months later than you. and that's assuming the information is even out at the time, as tons of games don't have a lot of information published on their content.

7K9Y6TWJE7 · October 2016

Yes and this is what is annoying me. Yes the endgame content maybe super interesting, but the journey to the end game *should not* be so bland and boring. Otherwise, the game becomes a walking simulator.

This is what is stopping the game from being a 10/10. I've heard that the game is made easier to keep the new people coming in. But if everything dies with one button press until a high level, it becomes redundant, boring, and feels like an introductory rpg. I think that everyone is looking at it wrong, this is another example of how extremes are bad. Before it was extremely hard, so it deterred people from getting to the end game. Now it is too easy... so it deters people from getting to the end game because it is boring. This is a huge *balance* issue.

This means the game relies mostly on *existing* players for their population. People who know that the game gets better later on. New players get bored. Fast.

counterpoint · October 2016

7K9Y6TWJE7 wrote: »

Before it was extremely hard, so it deterred people from getting to the end game. Now it is too easy... so it deters people from getting to the end game because it is boring. This is a huge *balance* issue.

This means the game relies mostly on *existing* players for their population. People who know that the game gets better later on. New players get bored. Fast.

Honestly, I imagine the decision is based primarily on metrics for new player retention. They probably found that they retain more new players by "removing friction" and making it easier to get to end-game, and that making it more challenging would not provide a net gain. That's probably also why the new classes are designed to be easier to play.

Probably, as you alluded, the answer would be to provide multiple paths that cater to different degrees of challenge people want without necessarily taking more time to get to end-game. I don't think it's necessarily a "huge balance issue" as you keep saying, but I do think that different players want different things, and if BHS's goal is to attract as many players as possible, they shouldn't assume everyone wants easy. (But not wanting "easy" doesn't mean the person wants "grindy/tedious" either, which is the way it was before.)

spagthetapdancer · October 2016

couldn't that also be interpreted to suggest there's a big issue with player mentality in the genre?

I don't see why so many people find open world questing to be so boring. this game's quests are pretty middle of the road and right now the pace is decent at least.

7K9Y6TWJE7 · October 2016

@counterpoint
You're probably right, there probably is a metric that this is based on. I'd imagine so. Also I really want to avoid sounding biased, I realize I may sound that way now, so I want to go on the record and say that what I'm saying may be completely wrong. But I agree, maybe BHS shouldn't assume that new players want an easy time.

@spagthetapdancer
Possibly, it is possible that the old mentality of the player base took affect and created what we see today. I think the story is interesting, but the quests of the main story are boring due to the repetition of tasks. From what I could read there were plenty of people happy with the old difficulty but the argument swayed towards those upset over the difficulty. I think a middle ground is needed here.

counterpoint · October 2016

7K9Y6TWJE7 wrote: »

You're probably right, there probably is a metric that this is based on. I'd imagine so. Also I really want to avoid sounding biased, I realize I may sound that way now, so I want to go on the record and say that what I'm saying may be completely wrong. But I agree, maybe BHS shouldn't assume that new players want an easy time.

I don't think you're wrong. I mean, most action games have difficulty settings, and TERA features action combat. So it's not illogical at all that some people will want a challenge right from the start. There's definitely a lot of people on the forum who look back fondly on the old days and ask regularly to get the harder BAMs and more challenging levelling process back. You probably can't really have a "difficulty slider" for open world content in the literal sense, but there's probably a way to do something. Unfortunately, my guess is that their priorities are elsewhere right now.

7K9Y6TWJE7 · October 2016

Yea and unfortunately we won't get anywhere with this discussion forum or any immediate results.

I doubt it but if BHS ever reads this forum, I know you have priorities elsewhere, but this is what I see as a major obstacle to new players playing your game. It makes us feel like we are playing a juvenile game specified to the introducion of RPG elements to new MMO'ers.

Either way, I'm going to leave this forum up for a couple days in case someone else has some ideas they want to share. I'll mark it answered later on. Thanks for the conversation everyone! I'll check in from time to time.

spagthetapdancer · October 2016

7K9Y6TWJE7 wrote: »

@spagthetapdancer Possibly, it is possible that the old mentality of the player base took affect and created what we see today. I think the story is interesting, but the quests of the main story are boring due to the repetition of tasks. From what I could read there were plenty of people happy with the old difficulty but the argument swayed towards those upset over the difficulty. I think a middle ground is needed here.

what I don't understand about the repetition argument is how the alternative is any less repetitive. specifically in comparison to plain dungeon grinds or battleground queue(which is what people are doing instead of questing).

Here's my understanding of the scenarios.
Dungeon/BG grind
You stand in town or near a BAM hotspot once you unlock them. you literally farm the same mobs for a period of time. your queue pops, and you proceed to do the same thing you did the last 3 times you ran this dungeon/BG, the tasks only changing when you unlock a new dungeon. Bonus repetition points for BG queues since you only get one of them.

BAM farming
Same monsters. same attack patterns. same location.

Questing.
The tasks stay the same, but there's about 3-5 different tasks total. the location is constantly changing. the mobs themselves are changing. you get sent to most dungeons via quests and get to run in to do them too. Quest text gives you a break from killing stuff in order to read. BAMs are all over the zones you quest so you run into a greater variety of those to choose to kill a few times before moving on. you're given more reason to do something than xp rate. The list goes on.

I may be biased here, but that's only because I've come to a conclusion already(because it happens in many MMO's). I do not see how questing is more repetitive than grinding. it seems like the very opposite since it involves a greater variety of tasks, locations, goals, and monsters, and that one would have to be very selective with what details they pay attention to in order to paint things in such a way. so I have to ask, what is fundamentally repetitive about questing, that isn't more repetitive about straight up grinding?

I can understand claims about difficulty and agree that it needs to be raised, but we should be careful of raising it too much. I don't oneshot mobs but it isn't unimaginable and mobs die fairly quick regardless. but a claim of greater repetition within questing compared to the other forms of leveling seems literally inaccurate from my perspective.

counterpoint · October 2016

spagthetapdancer wrote: »

I may be biased here, but that's only because I've come to a conclusion already(because it happens in many MMO's). I do not see how questing is more repetitive than grinding. it seems like the very opposite since it involves a greater variety of tasks, locations, goals, and monsters, and that one would have to be very selective with what details they pay attention to in order to paint things in such a way. so I have to ask, what is fundamentally repetitive about questing, that isn't more repetitive about straight up grinding?

I'm not sure the key issue is being repetitive moreso than just being boring. I think the biggest problem with TERA's main quest line is the amount of time you spend travelling from hub to hub to do one small thing and then move on to the next. It made sense when each hub opened up a whole bunch of side quests, but now you spend more time travelling than in combat (or reading quests, etc.). I suspect this is part of the reason they're opening up flying mounts to the whole world (eventually), and why all the new areas (Stepstone Isle, reorganized 11-21 quests, etc.) are much more compact. Questing is a much more accepted way to get from 60-65 because the whole process is fairly efficient.

Of course, this exposes another problem in that there's this entire world to explore, and even if you do follow the main story now there are some areas that you won't even visit anymore... but that's probably a topic for another discussion.

spagthetapdancer · October 2016

that's certainly something I can get my head around. last night when I was in Val Aureum I was getting exactly that kind of impression, that some of the hubs were passed through pretty fast. Timeless woods is another really strong example of it. It hit me really strongly when I had to go up the hill and saw how gorgeous the zone was, but reminded myself that this nice view is only going to be available for like 2-3 quests before I move onto something far less impressive looking.

KattyKira · October 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

Questing is a much more accepted way to get from 60-65 because the whole process is fairly efficient.

Also because of the rewards of gold too you get from quests... especially as an elite that makes it double

Its almost like doing the VQs at 65, but with story quests giving like a level 62 story quests nets 75g (x2 if you are an elite so, 150g).

Yamazuki · October 2016

counterpoint wrote: »

Questing is a much more accepted way to get from 60-65 because the whole process is fairly efficient.

That's more so to do with the fact it's very rewarding. You get a lot of gold, along with credits for little effort. In addition to DPS classes getting 4x Keen Vrysks for finishing it as well. The other thing is you will most likely be waiting in between each Sabex/MC even as Elite for several minutes, so in between each cool down you might as well quest anyways; before 60 you don't really run into cool downs between instances to that degree. Some people still mostly dungeon between 60->65 and then just go back and breezes through the quest purely for the free stuff, at least for those that are aware of all the rewards.

aeee98 · October 2016

Will just pop by and give a little of my two cents

I should be able to learn a dungeon's fights through experimentation and observation without relying on metagaming and you should not have the right to pressure me into doing so just because I arrived on site months later than you

If you are playing it and learning the game with your friends, experimenting is part of the fun. But when it comes out to public groups, remember that some may have been through that process, and have seen way too many runs. Not many people want to go through another failed FINM run after their 50th clear for example. There is nothing wrong with experimenting in a pub, I do sometimes too, but there is something wrong with not even understanding the basics and dying over very simple attacks, some of which even have indicators of what to do. Still remembering that BRHM fail run where I die in annihiliation despite it seeming like I dodged everything just because I didn't know how much of a rubberband effect I need to cater for due to ping difference for example.

I may be biased here, but that's only because I've come to a conclusion already(because it happens in many MMO's). I do not see how questing is more repetitive than grinding. it seems like the very opposite since it involves a greater variety of tasks, locations, goals, and monsters, and that one would have to be very selective with what details they pay attention to in order to paint things in such a way. so I have to ask, what is fundamentally repetitive about questing, that isn't more repetitive about straight up grinding?

Questing gets repetitive when the difficulty of the monsters are too easy that you can't be bothered to think about it. Right now it is about: Go X location, kill Y of Z monster or gather A of B item. Even if it is different zones, different mobs and different atmosphere, you don't feel like you are fighting a different monster, especially now that mobs are essentially sandbags. It gets even more boring now when the "Go X Location" is very long.

As for the entire post itself, I hated questing even when it was hubs, and have been spamming dungeon for the most part after my first character. I did lots of CS when it was 30-65, gathering myself a decent winrate despite having the level deficiency.

I don't mind it being easier to level (in terms of duration), but watering down the mobs to a degree where you can play it blindfolded is bad. Also they made it such that the difficulty is largely defined by your computer's ability to render the challenge (ie boss mechanic) rather than actual masterful gameplay now, which turns many of the vets away. If the mobs actually posed a challenge by having unique movesets in OW rather than generic monster type attacks, I would actually enjoy questing.

Also, regarding what you say about Sorcerer, Sorcerer has a very high skillcap, or at least used to have one. You aren't at a time where Fireblast generates aggro when it is casted, and there are no glyphs that increase crit chance on monster, making the character very vulnerable if the tank doesn't know what they are doing, or when you do so much DPS you just strip off aggro from tanks with just one tier of gear below you while you have Eclipse Potion on. The levelling process isn't dependent on the class, but the player.

Are There Balancing Issues in Tera?

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