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Please Bring Back Eclipse!

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Comments

  • Tanking is stressful,

    I know cause I tank but have been away since VM2.

    Lot of changes but the one thing that is still true is first job is to survive if that means you lose agro so be it, cant get one shot by a move cause I didn't prioritize staying alive first...Lot of one shot moves, and I have to be aware of animation locks at times. That means getting real comfortable with boss patterns and not getting caught up in certain moves that don't allow for a quick cancel or Iframe and that matters a lot to staying on your feet.
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    I got back to this after finally doing Lilith Buttttt, I mean Lilith Keep, I don't think it is a tank thing, those bosses barely stand in a place, they just run and jump around anyway. The nature of that dungeon felt like that, might be wrong.
  • If resets scrolls were fixed maybe skilled tanks wouldn't be so hard to find.
  • CatoriiCatorii ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    I had a brawler in an SSNM run this morning that literally didn't know he was a tank. When another DPS in the party complained that he wasn't keeping aggro, he said they should wear aggro gear so they can tank. I was the one tanking as an a-stance warrior. Literally couldn't touch the boss without stealing aggro even if I waited a while when he got it back.

    I don't think the issue is so much with aggro as it is with the fact that we're IMSing more right now than we have in any previous patch. Most content can be IMSed, except for RMNM/HM, LKHM, SSHM, and SCHM. Absolutely everything else is IMSable (which is quite a lot). And what did we learn from IMS in previous patches?

    That it's completely [filtered] trap. What we're seeing is a bunch of the players we'd never normally run with because they have crap rolls, crystals, etc. But because most dungeons are done in IMS now (due to almost zero tanks in LFG, ever), most of the tanks we're seeing are poor examples of what their classes can do. I see a lot of brawlers holding down block for ages and then wondering why they don't have aggro, or tanks that constantly spin bosses (or dodge through them) because reasons.

    Aggro isn't the issue. Player skill is the issue. Any run with a decent tank on your server will show you that. This is nothing like the (actual) aggro issues we had pre-brawler.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    I'm neutral as to whether EME brings back eclipse potions or not. There will always be 2 sides, 1 arguing that eclipse is not needed & tanks just need to get good, and the other 1 arguing that eclipse should not have been removed since they are a great help for newbies. In the end, whether eclipse potions come back or not is up to EME/BHS; just learn to adapt to it. (aka learn to deal with eclipse potions being no longer available).

    Personally, I main brawler and play with ~250 ping. I do not have the best PC or am the best brawler out there, but if I can hold aggro in a party with +15 dps for majority of boss battles using full set of slaughter +12 gear (properly rolled) with shadowvain + corvette accessories (also properly rolled of course), I don't have power/crit boosting brooches, since I'm just using the superior cleansing brooch. If the dps decides to pop quatrefoil or power/crit brooches, then I'll most likely lose aggro for that period of time. If I really can't hold aggro against a particular dps, then I just have to respect the fact that he is way better than me in terms of gear/skill/etc (not that my ping helps either), and move on. It's just that 1 guy I can't hold aggro against, nothing to beat myself up too much over. Other than that, there shouldn't be much problems, so I don't really see the reason why people keep complaining about tanks having a hard time holding aggro.
    I will not deny that eclipse potions are good QoL items. but since they have been removed, just step the [filtered] up and improve. It's not that hard is it?

    Still can't hold aggro? Then perhaps you wanna look at what consumables your dps are using. If they're similarly geared as you, then you would want to use the same consumables that they're using to keep up. This is more so if THEY ARE BETTER GEARED THAN YOU. Obviously if they are better geared and use more consumables, they are gonna do much more dps than you, causing you to lose aggro. If you STILL can't hold aggro, then perhaps you might wanna use more consumables than them? Idk what else to say. Just common sense will serve anyone well on this matter. Complaining about eclipse potions being removed isn't gonna serve you (or your party members) any good, when you can just deal with it in other ways.

    It all mostly comes down to player skill and knowledge if they can do something well or not (also common sense). You can have my same gear, but if you're using trash glyphs, you won't be able to hold aggro either.

    And then there are those people saying they need eclipse potions cuz they just started playing a tank class. I'll repeat what I said above: deal with it. It's the same thing as playing with +15 dps in your party while you're a new tank. Regardless of whether they use eclipse potions or not, they are going to take aggro, and there's nothing much you can do about it. Why not use this same logic for the case of eclipse potoins being removed? Take it as a time to learn how to get better, don't just keep on dwelling on the fact that you don't have the support of eclipse potions to make your life easier.

    (This post assumes that tank players reading this already have basic knowledge of proper crystals, glyphs, rotations etc, so if you don't, you're obviously going to disagree with me)
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    streetdog wrote: »
    There are massive issues with aggro for some reason since the new patch for brawler, when it doesnt have GF on.
    It might be combination of different factors - brawlers hit for less now, because healers debuff don't stack, mb base aggro is reduced.
    But the fact is that brawler without GF has it very hard to keep aggro.

    It's the same for Lancer, just not as noticeable. The Lancer is doing the same dps as last patch, while not as high as it should be it still held onto aggro, but after the patch he loses it more often while still performing the same as last patch.
  • HaloistHaloist ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    streetdog wrote: »
    There are massive issues with aggro for some reason since the new patch for brawler, when it doesnt have GF on.
    It might be combination of different factors - brawlers hit for less now, because healers debuff don't stack, mb base aggro is reduced.
    But the fact is that brawler without GF has it very hard to keep aggro.

    I haven't really noticed an issue with brawler aggro without GF on. IMO it's mostly caused by the fact that the bosses in new dungeons are more active then previous ones, running around for mechanics or just outright turning away from the tank. With all these issues, tanks will of course have some problems with keeping their important buffs up. This is not even taking into account the fact that without GF on, it's very hard to frontal block while attacking many of the new bosses, since they have less wind-up animations before attacking you, and doing 1 roundhouse kick at the wrong time can either get you knocked down or make you take massive dmg from the boss (this opinion is very biased since as I mentioned earlier I play with 250 ping, so take it with a pinch of salt).

    Yamazuki wrote: »
    It's the same for Lancer, just not as noticeable. The Lancer is doing the same dps as last patch, while not as high as it should be it still held onto aggro, but after the patch he loses it more often while still performing the same as last patch.

    I completely quit my lancer this patch, since as mentioned, bosses hit way too fast now. With my already bad ping, I can't even counterattack without getting hit for a lot of dmg. It was still manageable during df/ss days, but these 2 new dungeons are just really bad for higher ping players. Fast-to-almost-nonexistent wind-up animations just killed lancer for me.
  • YamazukiYamazuki ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haloist wrote: »
    streetdog wrote: »
    There are massive issues with aggro for some reason since the new patch for brawler, when it doesnt have GF on.
    It might be combination of different factors - brawlers hit for less now, because healers debuff don't stack, mb base aggro is reduced.
    But the fact is that brawler without GF has it very hard to keep aggro.

    I haven't really noticed an issue with brawler aggro without GF on. IMO it's mostly caused by the fact that the bosses in new dungeons are more active then previous ones, running around for mechanics or just outright turning away from the tank. With all these issues, tanks will of course have some problems with keeping their important buffs up. This is not even taking into account the fact that without GF on, it's very hard to frontal block while attacking many of the new bosses, since they have less wind-up animations before attacking you, and doing 1 roundhouse kick at the wrong time can either get you knocked down or make you take massive dmg from the boss (this opinion is very biased since as I mentioned earlier I play with 250 ping, so take it with a pinch of salt).

    Yamazuki wrote: »
    It's the same for Lancer, just not as noticeable. The Lancer is doing the same dps as last patch, while not as high as it should be it still held onto aggro, but after the patch he loses it more often while still performing the same as last patch.

    I completely quit my lancer this patch, since as mentioned, bosses hit way too fast now. With my already bad ping, I can't even counterattack without getting hit for a lot of dmg. It was still manageable during df/ss days, but these 2 new dungeons are just really bad for higher ping players. Fast-to-almost-nonexistent wind-up animations just killed lancer for me.

    I'm not even talking about new dungeons. He was losing aggro in SS while doing ~4% more damage than he did last patch. Also, I find RM and LK easier to tank than dps anyways, so that's a matter of opinion...
  • Guess we'll need proper data to figure this out then, since without actual numbers it's down to our opinions and nothing else.
  • Back when Lake of Tears was a thing and during the early dungeons like Sabex Armory, Manaya's core and the like, my warrior tanked pretty well. It was fairly easy even with aggro gear as I could pretty much do my normal rotation, wear aggro gear, interject torrent of blows in my combos when it's off cooldown and between smoke flanker / aggressor, was fairly difficult to take aggro off of me.

    Nowadays, I'm in slaughter+12. Not the best but it 's doable and I do alright. With a full set of aggro gear and crystals, I was hitting roughly 120% aggro increase. I can't for the life of me hold aggro nowadays like i used to. It used to be simple. I'd do my normal rotation, inject torrent of blows with the glyph for the extra aggro increase every 7 seconds, pop battlecry as a taunt in case I lost aggro and I was largely good to go. Now it seems if someone so much as sneezes at the mob, I can't keep aggro no matter what I do. Even spamming battle cry when it's off cooldown I can't seem to keep aggro. I have tried leading with infuriate to max my aggro. I have tried using it as an emergency oh crap I don't have aggro card anymore due to it's long cooldown. Smoke flanker largely does what it's supposed to and holds aggro very well but once it's over, that's it. The 45 second cooldown and 1 minute cooldown of smoke aggressor makes it so that I can't keep aggro when they are down, even with a specialized aggro set up and as much aggro generation on my skills as possible.

    I don't know what's changed but it's certainly hard as hell to tank anymore. Take in account that some bosses care not for your aggro shenanigans to begin with and will randomly target someone else throughout the match and you have a recipe for disaster. I'm beginning to think that something is off with aggro generation. It seems sheer DPS is generating TOO much aggro at some times, as even in A-stance with my minuscule 3 mil crits I've managed to steal aggro from people. I don't get it, really.
  • LesbianViLesbianVi ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yamazuki wrote: »
    Haloist wrote: »
    streetdog wrote: »
    There are massive issues with aggro for some reason since the new patch for brawler, when it doesnt have GF on.
    It might be combination of different factors - brawlers hit for less now, because healers debuff don't stack, mb base aggro is reduced.
    But the fact is that brawler without GF has it very hard to keep aggro.

    I haven't really noticed an issue with brawler aggro without GF on. IMO it's mostly caused by the fact that the bosses in new dungeons are more active then previous ones, running around for mechanics or just outright turning away from the tank. With all these issues, tanks will of course have some problems with keeping their important buffs up. This is not even taking into account the fact that without GF on, it's very hard to frontal block while attacking many of the new bosses, since they have less wind-up animations before attacking you, and doing 1 roundhouse kick at the wrong time can either get you knocked down or make you take massive dmg from the boss (this opinion is very biased since as I mentioned earlier I play with 250 ping, so take it with a pinch of salt).

    Yamazuki wrote: »
    It's the same for Lancer, just not as noticeable. The Lancer is doing the same dps as last patch, while not as high as it should be it still held onto aggro, but after the patch he loses it more often while still performing the same as last patch.

    I completely quit my lancer this patch, since as mentioned, bosses hit way too fast now. With my already bad ping, I can't even counterattack without getting hit for a lot of dmg. It was still manageable during df/ss days, but these 2 new dungeons are just really bad for higher ping players. Fast-to-almost-nonexistent wind-up animations just killed lancer for me.

    I'm not even talking about new dungeons. He was losing aggro in SS while doing ~4% more damage than he did last patch. Also, I find RM and LK easier to tank than dps anyways, so that's a matter of opinion...

    So bosses in LKNM doesn't run around too much? I was using full dps set crystals before patch, and was doing a bit fine on normal dungeons, but the thing is I can't evaluate my performance much now in DFNM to see the real differences since that dungeon is easier than Soloing BOL at lvl 65.
  • Kinohki wrote: »
    I don't know what's changed but it's certainly hard as [filtered] to tank anymore. Take in account that some bosses care not for your aggro shenanigans to begin with and will randomly target someone else throughout the match and you have a recipe for disaster. I'm beginning to think that something is off with aggro generation. It seems sheer DPS is generating TOO much aggro at some times, as even in A-stance with my minuscule 3 mil crits I've managed to steal aggro from people. I don't get it, really.

    Ever since Brawlers were introduced the entire aggro formula got changed to being damage based. As a warrior tank, it is extremely hard to generate damage, even more so if there's another warrior dps in your team, since the edge is shared. That is why you don't even see a warrior tank nowadays, unless it's a guild run and they have no other tanks in store for a dungeon.
    I.E. Warrior tanks will always have difficulty tanking in this patch, until the revamp comes later on.

    Moving on, I would say that this thread was made solely on the point of view of Lancer/Brawler. If even they have problems holding aggro, then I would realistically assume warrior tanks would do much worse.
  • seraphinushseraphinush ✭✭✭✭
    kyoukaya wrote: »
    If resets scrolls were fixed maybe skilled tanks wouldn't be so hard to find.
    That only means statics can run more often, nothing guarantees skilled tanks using lfg or ims
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