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[RESOLVED]The problem of item level restrictions in the new dungeons

2

Comments

  • Zirus wrote: »
    It's like the third day. Just upgrade your stuff, Jesus.

    Sure, a team of Schisma CAN do Wonderholme, it doesn't have any wipe mechanics or anything, just teamwork, but you bet your [filtered] they'll be in there for 45 minutes to an hour.

    Honestly, the vanguard is probably set this way to deter dreadnaught and VM5 from doing these new dungeons. On MT, pretty much everyone LFGs. Which, you know, it sucks, I get it, it kinda sucks, but you know what, there's a slaughter weapon there, that, etchings and 3% aside, are -better- than your lucid. We've had 2 triple drop events, hell, spacecats gave out 3 hearts on stream last week, and 10% or above of any starfall piece dropped from dreadspire every. single. run. It's been almost a year since lucid was released. You have no more excuses, no more complaints, it is not hardcore to expect someone to upgrade their weapon to the next vm if they had the previous one, in six months.

    the previous threads were released to complain about HEALERS having vanguard ilvl issues, not anybody else, and specifically because the healers get the short end of the stick on VM7. NOBODY ELSE.

    tl;dr there is a massive difference between 'clearing content' and holding back a team of more sufficient players. We've all seen IMS, we all know what the average playerbase can bring. Just get the slaughter people, lucid is now gen.

    If anything, people who have stuck with their Lucid gear from before are on average far more experienced and skilled with their characters than your so called "more sufficient players" who get Slaughter. Also, the % difference in damage between Lucid+15 and Slaughter weapon is very small, probably smaller or equal to the 3% damage roll on the lucid gloves. Not to mention the far better protection the lucid chest offers compared to Slaughter chest due to the additional stat line. Perhaps you should reevaluate what you deem sufficient.
  • ZirusZirus
    edited May 2016
    Let me tell you the story of the time I brought a +12 dreadnaught gunner to FIHM first release week.

    This kid wasn't particularly enjoyed by our guild, he was kind of pushy for friendship, you know, the type of guy you want to offer it to, but pushes it on you too much for you to want to give it to him.

    One day, I was pulled in to a guild party that needed a tank for FIHM, and he weaseled his way in to it. I figured, I'd give it a shot, even if we don't clear, I can just reset and do it again, and the players that weren't experienced enough in their rotation, or did not have good enough gear, woul garner experience in to what they had to do to clear this dungeon, practice their rotation, and we could try it again at some other point, hoping for some humble experiences.

    Sure enough, we wiped on the first boss. At this point I already had a dozen or two clears, full 15 starfall, maybe my gloves were 12 or something. Unfortunately, it does not matter how much experience or gear one person has in a dungeon. Then we wiped on the second boss. Finally, we got to the third boss, and literally everyone floormastered but this one mystic, who kept ressing me, because at present moment, the gunner, our 'main' dps of the group, was putting up 69k DPS. 69k. A level 55 can do that. But you know what, we cleared and one shot that boss, simply because one mystic stayed alive. And this player, this abomination of a trap, had the gall to say to me, "See? No problem, we cleared it on the first shot!", perhaps, not realizing how particularly bad he had made the experience for other players. Not realizing that his DPS had caused nearly a dozen carpets, instead of just 3 or 4, an average for an average party.

    So why do I bring this up? Because many, many people in this game, in this world, are very skewed by what the word 'success' means. For some people, it's straight A's, for others, a D-. Now, a straight A student does not want to constantly work with a D- student, because he has to do more work for the same reward, right? Perhaps you aren't one of these players, perhaps you do as much damage as that guy in starfall, but chances are, you're probably not, I've only seen lucid outdps GOOD starfall 3? maybe 4 times? Coming from players with alts who have been playing for years. The problem is, Tera doesn't have grades. In fact, we're not even supposed to use meters or anything, people just see, boss dies I did my job we're done here. That's fine and great and all for every day living, but when, and I have to just assume here, a large amount of people complaining about ilvl are either A) People who can let go of a weapon they build/bought 6 months to a year ago, or B) dont' want to upgrade their DN alt to slaughter, even though they're probably not nearly as efficient or experienced at their alt as they are their main, just for farming purposes, it just sounds selfish to me.

    To summarize, good people probably can clear, but they're holding others back, they hold progress back. In a way, from EME, or BHS, or whomever you want to blame, you can go right ahead and be mad at them for the MMO treadmill that has been and will most likely always be for the longevity of MMOs as we know them. Just like when I IMS or LFG for a party and half the members are standing around waiting for an explanation of the bosses from more experienced players in the party, rather than looking at a guide, I have the same feelings towards those who still want to use gear from two patches ago and think it's for some reason just as good. Guess what, it's not.

    om18b22.png

    An extra line + tier 3 etching (Versus ZERO etching on slaughter, mind you), + full PERFECT dyads makes lucid 3% WORSE than slaughter. Get it in to your heads. Dreadnaught was the divide between +13 and +14 Starfall, +15 lucid is comparable to +12 starfall, with the exception of the extra line and longevity of using it for 2 patches, making slaughter the equivalent of +13/14 VM7. It's by design.
  • edited May 2016
    @Zirus
    It's ironic you bring up that story because it works against you case. +12 Dreadnaught is equivalent to +12 Slaughter now, so if your anecdote actually teaches any lesson whatsoever (it doesn't), it teaches us that newer players in new +12 gear shouldn't be trust over +15 players with more experience and dedication. Also not solocarrying the dps as a brawler in FIHM LUL

    Also regarding the damage for the weapons, all the DPS class weapons have a 6.9% back damage line, as well as an additional rerollable line over Slaughter.
  • It's designed to teach you that players have no idea what part they're actually playing in a dungeon without the necessary information. While this may or may not actually be their fault for not knowing, there are plenty of players out there who do very sub-par performance in both good and bad gear. This particular one is funny to me, because it was very early in the FIHM patch, where most people weren't skilled, just like today, and it takes very similar situations of ilvl in to account saying that this or that gear is good enough or bad enough to clear something.

    You may think to yourself, "Well I can do 600k in my lucid scythes I should get to be rewarded for the vanguard!" and I wouldn't necessarily disagree that YOU shouldn't be rewarded for putting out proper required DPS. However, that's not the reality of the majority here, now is it?

    to counterargument 'Not solocarrying in the first 2 weeks of FIHM on carpet phase lul' insults flung at me, I'd laugh just the same at those who can't keep up with a brawlers DPS. Every day for the last 4-5 months, I've run with at least a few people who can output well over 1m DPS, of every class, including archer, and warrior. If you can only do 600k, there's something wrong with your ping, your rotation, or motor skills, or your gear. Some can be helped, some can't.

    As far as slaughter vs lucid is, the numbers are right there for you fam, if you want to live in your own bubble, go right ahead.

    tl;dr some people can hold their own in lucid, 90% of the population can't, those who can, probably on the forums.
  • FinalArchonFinalArchon ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Your argument makes no sense. You are comparing apples and oranges. Your case was due to a person who is either:

    a: not familiar with the dungeon thus putting out subpar dps.
    b: not familiar with his class, therefore putting out subpar dps.

    Either case, that has nothing to do with gear. As you just said: necessary information. That's not gear. I've out dps starfall people in schisma. YES! there actually ARE people that bad. If anything, your argument only serve against you because, if people inspect you and see that you crafted the VM gear yourself instead of bought, it serves as some level of confidence that yes you will know what you're doing (again, key word being some, as there are still tons of people who crafted VM and still doesn't know what to do). But most will rather take a chance with the person with said VM gear over those without. It's kinda the fuel for the recent elitist vs casual debates: people requiring vm to even be accepted into lfg runs. Tera is advertised as an action combat mmo. While gear plays an important roll, the ability of avoiding attacks, knowing when to use proper skills and rotation, actually will allow you to do more than just having gear.

    Edit: since update on the issues thread just stated that they are going to lower ilvl requirement. I am going to rest my case. Makes no sense to keep debating this with you.
  • edited May 2016
    Zirus wrote: »
    It's designed to teach you that players have no idea what part they're actually playing in a dungeon without the necessary information. While this may or may not actually be their fault for not knowing, there are plenty of players out there who do very sub-par performance in both good and bad gear. This particular one is funny to me, because it was very early in the FIHM patch, where most people weren't skilled, just like today, and it takes very similar situations of ilvl in to account saying that this or that gear is good enough or bad enough to clear something.

    You may think to yourself, "Well I can do 600k in my lucid scythes I should get to be rewarded for the vanguard!" and I wouldn't necessarily disagree that YOU shouldn't be rewarded for putting out proper required DPS. However, that's not the reality of the majority here, now is it?

    to counterargument 'Not solocarrying in the first 2 weeks of FIHM on carpet phase lul' insults flung at me, I'd laugh just the same at those who can't keep up with a brawlers DPS. Every day for the last 4-5 months, I've run with at least a few people who can output well over 1m DPS, of every class, including archer, and warrior. If you can only do 600k, there's something wrong with your ping, your rotation, or motor skills, or your gear. Some can be helped, some can't.

    As far as slaughter vs lucid is, the numbers are right there for you fam, if you want to live in your own bubble, go right ahead.

    tl;dr some people can hold their own in lucid, 90% of the population can't, those who can, probably on the forums.

    Go check the graph for every other class, and you'll see the additional 6.9% back damage on Lucid that is not on Slaughter, as well as the extra rerollable line from +3-+9 which applies even to Brawler weapons.

    It's ridiculous that you claim players with VM gear which required far more effort to obtain should be worse compared to players with gear which can be acquired in a few days. Actually, why don't you go ahead and document all the +15 lucid and +15 Slaughter dps that you've seen, and see which one wins out.

    Also why would you do laugh at people who cannot keep up with your +15 Brawler dps? A brawler will outdps every class (except for ninja) by far on the vast majority of bosses, given the same gear and skill level. I guess you wouldn't know because you let lots of people outdps you? I might not be the best brawler but I'm sure I can give you some pointers if you ask nicely ;p

    EDIT: thanks @FinalArchon for pointing me toward the announcement. Seems like Enmasse can be reasonable, unlike some people :p
  • CezzareCezzare ✭✭✭
    I think the problem in this case is that there's a big gap compared to the last patch. For the Dawnfall patch you could achieve an ilevel of 397 easily with your schisma set at +12, at that point you would be locked out of AB and FIHM only, a player in full DN +12 would have an ilevel of 403 and could enter any dungeon he wanted, but now dungeon requirements jump from 397-402 to 397-409. Keep in mind this is also a patch where the devs are starting to "flush" the older sets, I guess the sudden raise in ilevel requirements is related with the idea of speeding the gear rotation, in PvP for example, people is also wondering if they should stay with tenus or craft starfall, imperator ot conflate.

    Now, about if lucid is still viable or not, I would ask how many players still rolled with a full generation set on end game dungeons during Dawnfall, since stat-wise it was under DN and its only advantage was perhaps the extra rolls... of course, you need to play decently to make those worth against the raw power from new sets. And don't get me wrong, a few days before the update I ran KDNM with a reaper wearing discovery and the guy outperformed our noob brawler tank and one of the other DPS, skill does count and it sucks that the current VG system doesn't necessarily rewards skilled players, but there's a lot of things the devs have to clean up in the gear progression mess they made.
  • ZirusZirus
    edited May 2016
    This guy said it better than I ever could, and quite honestly, you're setting the par for the next 6 months. By lowerling the ilvl now, there will never be a push to raise it in 2-3 months, which means that we'll still be getting dreadnaught and lucid halfway in to the patch.
    Also why would you do laugh at people who cannot keep up with your +15 Brawler dps? A brawler will outdps every class (except for ninja) by far on the vast majority of bosses, given the same gear and skill level. I guess you wouldn't know because you let lots of people outdps you? I might not be the best brawler but I'm sure I can give you some pointers if you ask nicely

    It was in response to his less than friendly response laughing at my inability to DPS carry my 13th or so run of FIHM on carpet phase. There is more than enough DPS from every single class in this game to keep up. Just another shot at "I can't DPS as much or more than a good brawler so I'm going to chock it up to every class is worse than Brawler"

    Are you from MT? I'll happily compare notes, you may not be the best brawler, but as far as PvE is concerned, I am one of them. Shoot me a PM if you'd like.


  • ZirusZirus
    edited May 2016
    PBgWiau.png

    PvP aside, as this topic is about the item level required for PvE, Slaughter is 7% better than dread, including the line difference. As stated earlier, there is a 3% difference in a 3% +15 lucid weapon to a slaughter weapon. Also, there is no MP line associated with dreadnaught, according to this chart.

    Also ITT: Armor ilvl never made a difference to anyone, who cares about being 1 shot by verno lasers, let's all go back to schisma because DPS never get hit.
  • Xplato wrote: »

    and like I said slaughter doesn't have the lines.

    it's been the 6% back damage that dread has makes up for it's 2K less attack modifer that slaughter has. it's a worse than dread is, it's just the facts, and the stats.

    look at a dread weapon ingame, it has the MP line.

    Do the math dude, 2000 of 14000 is not 6.9%, it is not the same as 6.9%, it is not less than 6.9%, it is more. Like, I did it for you in my post, and you just seemed to ignore it and rant about how it's inferior? What is this about facts? What?
  • MagraalMagraal ✭✭✭
    The best possible solution as I see it is for BHS to simply remove ALL ilvl requirements from dailies. They could leave it so it only shows dailies appropriate to your ilvl but make it so you still get the daily from ANYTHING you kill- like how killing BAMs on IoD that are below your currently listed ilvl daily, why not make it work for dailies that are above too?.
  • Magraal wrote: »
    The best possible solution as I see it is for BHS to simply remove ALL ilvl requirements from dailies. They could leave it so it only shows dailies appropriate to your ilvl but make it so you still get the daily from ANYTHING you kill- like how killing BAMs on IoD that are below your currently listed ilvl daily, why not make it work for dailies that are above too?.

    Because for you and say, another friend, you can do an entire parties worth of vanguards in an hour or two on alts.
  • NopiNopi ✭✭✭✭✭
    I shouldn't be posting here because I'm a noob and I haven't studied this game as if it was an astrophysics class like you all seem to do. Anyway. To add a bit of average scrubbie player perspective, I got my slaughter weapon and a belt. At first I managed to get it to +9 masterwork and both things gave me over 6k extra attack power over my full DN +12 setup. I stopped there because of the feedstock issue but just now I decided to give in and bought some of that overpriced feedstock on the broker and managed to +12 it. Now it gives me an over 12k AP increase over DN. So at least upgrading from DN to Slaughter will give a nice buff. On my current setup, I did lose the endurance bonus with 3 DN and 2 Slaughter, and lost the second DN +7 to power, but obtained a +8 from the Slaughter 2 set. So base stat-wise, I lost some endurance to gain a lot of attack. Good for a dps in my opinion.

    I know we are not talking about the same thing really, but I talk from the perspective of that random undergeared scrubbie you will meet in IMS or in world. Not the kind of player you may meet in LFG.

    As for the topic itself. While I do believe something should be there to prevent total noobs from trying and failing end game with sub par gear, perhaps some looser rules should apply for people who can clearly do the content in a proper matter while not holding back anyone by backing up any slight lack of gear with skill. As in, keep a higher ilevel requirement for IMS but lower it just a bit when entering the dungeon itself. This seems more important now that there's this whole feedstock issue affecting the progress of pretty much everyone who didn't get the chance to get prepared beforehand, since I think nobody expected the feedstock supply would drop so badly.
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