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Do you need +15 Ambush?
Every new patch, whenever there is new content the same post seems to pop up:
Tera is an elitist game and whenever I apply to join on my non-BiS+15 characters i get rejected.
Gear is never a necessity, as many people have stated HH Phase 1 is probably doable with 30 people in full guile. However you also have to realize that your performance in game (ultimately the amount of dps you do, how much you heal, how long you survive, how long you keep aggro) is determined by: your skill as a player, AND the gear you're using.
What do I mean? I mean that assuming 2 dps of equal skill, the one with better gear does more damage. If the player with +15 ambush does 20% more damage than the one in guile, it also means that the ambush player can be dead for 20% of the fight and still deal the same amount of damage.
GEAR ACTS AS A BUFFER
Better gear allows you to sidecrit for as much as someone else's backcrit. Better gear allows you to facetank a swipe from the dragon without endangering the rest of your party because now a healer needs to waste 3 seconds standing still ressing you, which puts them at danger too. Better gear means you'll only have to cast focus heal once on the tank instead of having to also use immersion on the tank which could've been used to heal the dps. Better gear means you can hold block longer to play safer and to observe the boss' mechanics without losing aggro and wiping your party.
So is it any surprise that people want others to be in gear that allows them to [filtered] up when learning a new dungeon? It's a new dungeon so unless you play in other regions and have already familiarized yourself with all the mechanics, you are going to make mistakes, better gear allows you to make those mistakes without wiping your party/raid. So if you can prove to me that you can kill all 4 of the phase 1 dragons with optimal damage, optimal positioning and no deaths then I won't hesitate to put you on my static, but after 30+ hrs of running Phase 1, both pug and static, not a single guile +12 character has shown me that they can accomplish what was listed.
To put this into even better perspective, the new raid hasn't even come out for a week yet. Only 1 server has successfully cleared it, over time people will slowly gain experience so they don't need to rely on their gear as much. It's always easier to train 1 member if the other 4 are skilled than training 4 rookie with 1 skilled. When RMH was first released people only accepted +15IMP, now you can get in with +15 starfall or +12 guile, same happened with SSH, and i'm confident it will happen with HH too.
If you want to be the first to run the hardest dungeons in the game, shouldn't you also be the first to have the best gear in the game?
Tera is an elitist game and whenever I apply to join on my non-BiS+15 characters i get rejected.
Gear is never a necessity, as many people have stated HH Phase 1 is probably doable with 30 people in full guile. However you also have to realize that your performance in game (ultimately the amount of dps you do, how much you heal, how long you survive, how long you keep aggro) is determined by: your skill as a player, AND the gear you're using.
What do I mean? I mean that assuming 2 dps of equal skill, the one with better gear does more damage. If the player with +15 ambush does 20% more damage than the one in guile, it also means that the ambush player can be dead for 20% of the fight and still deal the same amount of damage.
GEAR ACTS AS A BUFFER
Better gear allows you to sidecrit for as much as someone else's backcrit. Better gear allows you to facetank a swipe from the dragon without endangering the rest of your party because now a healer needs to waste 3 seconds standing still ressing you, which puts them at danger too. Better gear means you'll only have to cast focus heal once on the tank instead of having to also use immersion on the tank which could've been used to heal the dps. Better gear means you can hold block longer to play safer and to observe the boss' mechanics without losing aggro and wiping your party.
So is it any surprise that people want others to be in gear that allows them to [filtered] up when learning a new dungeon? It's a new dungeon so unless you play in other regions and have already familiarized yourself with all the mechanics, you are going to make mistakes, better gear allows you to make those mistakes without wiping your party/raid. So if you can prove to me that you can kill all 4 of the phase 1 dragons with optimal damage, optimal positioning and no deaths then I won't hesitate to put you on my static, but after 30+ hrs of running Phase 1, both pug and static, not a single guile +12 character has shown me that they can accomplish what was listed.
To put this into even better perspective, the new raid hasn't even come out for a week yet. Only 1 server has successfully cleared it, over time people will slowly gain experience so they don't need to rely on their gear as much. It's always easier to train 1 member if the other 4 are skilled than training 4 rookie with 1 skilled. When RMH was first released people only accepted +15IMP, now you can get in with +15 starfall or +12 guile, same happened with SSH, and i'm confident it will happen with HH too.
If you want to be the first to run the hardest dungeons in the game, shouldn't you also be the first to have the best gear in the game?
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Comments
HarrowHold can't really be considered "new" dungeon to NA since every second of every fight has been described into guides, videos and stuff. NA should do better than any other regions since they do have this much information. Although this isn't true at all. Fact is that Tera players aren't elitists, they're no good at all. Facts that HH is actually runnable in Guile+12 (Korean run it that way), and here that only 1 server managed to do is only due to practice that NA no longer have. They don't learn to play, they learn how to copy thru dungeons, and doing so, you get stuck not learning how to survive in any ways.
Beside, thinking that NA will, one day run HH with guile+12 is probably a dream... But anyway, I'll keep hoping for your own sakes that happen.
You do realize that they have talents that can easily make up the difference between Guile and Ambush.
You do realize that is the very point I made? then I said "but NA won't make it". Thx for repeating myself though.
you clearly read it wrong, so you're the joke, just saying
Maybe it is doable in Guile, but the thing is, skilled players don't run around in Guile and do runs unless it is an alt... Also, Koreans aren't some super god players either. They have two advantages over NA players and hardly even perform better. They play with no ping and no packet loss, where as people in NA can have as high as 130 ping as the norm, with pack losses. Then they have talents.
That wasn't even your point. Your point was that NA had the advantage in guides but can't do it in Guile while the Koreans can, ignoring the fact that they all have sub 10 ping and actually have that talent system and the fact that the same guides are available for EVERYONE else. NA took under 12 hours to clear it while dealing with massive packet loss and server lag every 20 minutes. EU took 3 days, and EU has things like CAP to make shield phases and overall DPS a joke. As to the Guile point, Koreans make up the difference of gear by having Talents, which for some classes can easily add over 25% DPS, more than what going from Guile to Ambush (and other things like Etch 3s and Dyads) gives.
Having 1 Guile alt get carried by 29 others also doesn't count as "Koreans run it that way".
I have a question. Can you name more bad +15 players than +12 that you know of? The reason I ask this is because if you're a person that only typically accepts +15, I bet that you can call out a high amount of bad +15 players, more so than +12, simply because you don't accept as many +12 players. I know I can. And it isn't because I don't accept +12 players (I do), but because there are way more +15 players applying for parties than +12.
People say this game is elitist because it's true. Nobody cares to find out if you're a high-caliber player or not, because you're not +15, so it must be a waste of time. They're blinded by this assumption that +15 will deal more damage than +12 in any situation, not realizing, that the +15 player can be just as bad as the +12 player because they're "equal skill." +20% won't clear anything, but having an equally high skill level will. So what does +12/+15 matter in the grand scheme of things? Not a nothing. It will expedite the clear time of those who can clear it, and sure, make it easier, but it won't make it exceedingly possible for those whocan't clear it on +12 to clear it on +15.
It's no surprise to me that people don't accept +12, because I've accepted the nature of this game and the majority of LFG players; but that doesn't mean I don't think it's stupid or a very bad philosophy to have. After 30+ hours, how many +15s have shown what you listed? Every single one of them? You leave out the fact that even +15 players will fail bad. It doesn't matter what they have on, its how well they're able to play.
I had many points in my statement, and it was 1 of it. Beside, I talking about full Guile +12 group running HH. You make me think of those noobs who didn't believe when a full group of +12 Dreadnaught ran SSHM before Ambush patch. Yet it can be done. Samething happen here, skills overcome gear by alot, and NA doesn't have any. The "Best of Tera" usually are "casual players" elsewhere and that is a fact. Yes they do have lower ping, I do not deny that. As for EU, I careless about them, if they're as terrible as NA, good for them, who cares?
I gotta love the part where you say Ambush is 25% better than Guile, excluding etching/dyads, made me laugh.
I do agree they have less ping, although that shouldn't stop you from doing great. When you said "two advantages over NA", I thought you'd say "revamp" at some point, which I would of given it to you. Although in order to clear a 30 man dungeons, people has to talk and know each other, which, in the whole lvl 65 era, NA never actually manage to do that right.
Also saying that Koreans aren't "super god players" wasn't what I'm saying. I just used Guile as an example because it fit the current contents. Koreans have a weird way to play, and not many actually perform right, although I can tell you that, in MMORPG, they'll be a step ahead over NA since NA ditched MMOs. Good players moved on, leaving only those who feel any challenges within these games.
Ping can make a big difference in damage potential. I have played with 40, 130, and 300. There's a reason why California is no longer the "standard" for NA servers. It doesn't matter how good you are, you would perform much better depending on class with the ping of a Korean. It's also not just dps, but surviving. A person with higher ping has to have better reaction time, and packet losses at a bad time means the person dies since everything is a 1 shot, something Koreans don't deal with either. They also don't have to deal with the trash infrastructure that exists in NA either.
I believe you give to much credits to ping. In PVE you can easily play with high ping regardless of what you think. PvPwise I would agree with you, but PvE, sorry you're wrong. If video fails you, you have the sound. If the ping fails you, who cares, it's set so even people with 500-600 ping can do stuff, aka half second to prepare for any non-laggy people.
You know, in music, the hardest thing to do isn't to play right notes, but to wait for the right moment. Very samething happen in-game, when you have a specific moment, you know it's coming, you get a stress push(adrenaline I believe?), and believe me, 50ms is all you need in those moment (50ms if slow)
Full Guile groups doing Phase 4 in NA is near impossible. After 10 minutes on Phase 3/4 past 90%, the boss straight up becomes impossible to kill. It's not like Queen where she takes normal damage. Assuming you can even break Phase 4 shields in Guile (full VM8 raid with some of the best players in the game almost failed the final shield by 1-2s with everyone up).
Doing an easy hard mode using low tier gear without any real DPS check doesn't prove anything.
As for Ambush vs Guile, you clearly don't know how to calculate damage.
Difference in attack modifier between +15 Ambush and +12 Guile: ~11%.
Difference in damage lines: 12% (6% from +15, 6% from the flat damage line), or about 8.2% raw damage against enraged monsters and 10% raw damage against unenraged monsters if you have standard rolls and VM gloves.
The difference in raw damage between Guile and Ambush is only about 20-21%. Add in Dyads (about another 0.3 Crit Power) and an Etch 3/4 and you have about another 5% damage.
The damage difference isn't as big as you think.
And you said nothing about the damage gain from low ping. Low ping lets players just straight up use more skills faster. Easily more than 10% DPS gain/loss every 100 ping for most classes. For some classes (i.e. Archer), it's even worse since you can't even use a skill that consists of over 20% of your damage. Other classes (like Brawler and Sorc) have it better because they can queue skills after each other. Most classes do not have that luxury.