Do you need +15 Ambush?

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  • TWMagimayTWMagimay ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ashern wrote: »
    TWMagimay wrote: »
    Having seen perfectly rolled guile sorcs do sub 200k/s in LK NM, I disagree that it shows any idea what-so-ever. The jackpot-bust odds between +12 and +5 are NOT equal. +15 is a bigger investment than +12 => +15 player is more likely to have been playing longer. Gear carried is a thing as well, which, again, a +15 player is more likely to get. Assuming equal skill, +15 > +12 and you have no reason at all to assume the +12 is more skilled. Unless you are you and trying to prove some sort of a point.
    As for ppl not specifying +15, maybe they are not only looking for +15? As I said, last night they asked, people vouched for the +12 guy, he got in. If nobody knew him, he wouldn't have been accepted. That doesn't mean no +12s were accepted.

    Vouching, or being vouched for, is different. There's nothing else I can really say. People make assumptions all day long, and to me, it is lame how that is always the last factor in deciding to decline/ignore an unknown +12 without doing something so simple and humane as to whisper them to ask them a plain-as-day question. Whether or not they lie is on the applicant, but that's another story entirely. No where have I said that all +12's are better than +15. What you say is true, a +15 player is more likely to have been playing longer, but by the end, it is once again merely an assumption.

    Everything is an assumption when you don't know the person. Are the rookie in the dungeon? You assume they never did it or did it less than 5 times(even though it could be a same class alt). Are they skilled? You assume they did it more than 5 times and know how to do it(even though you can get carried or pay for clears). Do they have proper rolls and crystals? You assume they know what they are doing(even though they could've just copied somebody without understanding the reasons behind those choices). Are they in a guild known for a rigorous application process? You assume they are probably not trap(even though they might be [filtered]-ing the GM). You can ask them all the questions in the world but that doesn't even matter unless you assume they are not going to lie.
    At the same time, you(personally) assume stuff every time you accept somebody in your party or decline their application. You assume the guy with mp regen is going to be dead weight, for example. "Calling out" people who do exactly what you do is a bit...well, you know what it is, don't you?
    I don't know why you think you are owed a conversation. I, for one, have no idea what that "one question" is, have no desire to explain myself to some stranger I have already decided not to take to the run and, occasionally, wouldn't even have the time to do that with every applicant anyway nor am I interested in trying to figure out if the guy is lying or not. If I can't take him at his word, it's pointless to ask anything as I learn absolutely nothing. If you have something to say, you can start the conversation yourself. You are selling yourself, the LFG leader is buying you. And nobody goes knocking on salesmen's doors.
  • kubitoidkubitoid ✭✭✭✭✭
    liberation scrolls shouldnt exist in this game from the start thus +15 should be bound and untradable. but now its too late. who cares. no i dont need +15 because of that only. by principle
  • kubitoid wrote: »
    liberation scrolls shouldnt exist in this game from the start thus +15 should be bound and untradable. but now its too late. who cares. no i dont need +15 because of that only. by principle

    Although those Imp/Ambush boxes kinda ruin the fun out of it as well. I miss Archtype enchanting as well... :'(
  • feazesherofeazeshero ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Fulzoid wrote: »
    Dvsv wrote: »
    Fulzoid wrote: »
    I believe you give to much credits to ping. In PVE you can easily play with high ping regardless of what you think. PvPwise I would agree with you, but PvE, sorry you're wrong. If video fails you, you have the sound. If the ping fails you, who cares, it's set so even people with 500-600 ping can do stuff, aka half second to prepare for any non-laggy people.
    You know, in music, the hardest thing to do isn't to play right notes, but to wait for the right moment. Very samething happen in-game, when you have a specific moment, you know it's coming, you get a stress push(adrenaline I believe?), and believe me, 50ms is all you need in those moment (50ms if slow)

    Maybe you don't know what "ping/latency" is....

    500-600 ms? That's not even real time anymore, it's unplayable even for a tab target mmo!

    Just because I can actually laugh at two very specific points of your comment, I'll answer reply to it. Else, I see nothing to reply.

    1) I'm well aware what is ping nor latency. Latency doesn't really exist no more unless you do still use Dial up or if you're forced to use satellite. In that case, why on earth would you play MMORPG?

    2) I played WoW (tab targetting) looking at the floor for over a year, because I was playing on a Vista laptop that was lagging on Diablo2. That being said, my FPS was 0-1 at all time, even when walking alone in a plain field, and yet, I managed to be in the very #1 worldwise 10man guild as long as the guild remained. Beside, I was the top mage dps back in those time as well (Ulduar era). Yet, I can't remember my ping, sorry about that, but I can tell you, it was bad: Wi-Fi in 2010 wasn't very neat for gaming + a "at top" 5mb/s connection.


    Getting good isn't what I saying, I say learn to use all the info you get, Guides, Videos actually makes player become brainless, they don't actually learn their classes nor stats, they just copy others which claim to be best, so drop for example, I dunno, 30 brainless copy/paste players in a dungeon that has actually a few mechanics, what happens? Wipes... wipes and wipes.

    And beside, monitor speed would be under 4ms, but once again, I announce you that sounds get no delay and provide the most information. Graphics can be only used for "current location", just has a guide through all the possibilities you can do, which one should be best.


    Edit: Post didn't exist when I sent:
    ERA2 wrote: »
    Dvsv wrote: »
    Fulzoid wrote: »
    I believe you give to much credits to ping. In PVE you can easily play with high ping regardless of what you think. PvPwise I would agree with you, but PvE, sorry you're wrong. If video fails you, you have the sound. If the ping fails you, who cares, it's set so even people with 500-600 ping can do stuff, aka half second to prepare for any non-laggy people.
    You know, in music, the hardest thing to do isn't to play right notes, but to wait for the right moment. Very samething happen in-game, when you have a specific moment, you know it's coming, you get a stress push(adrenaline I believe?), and believe me, 50ms is all you need in those moment (50ms if slow)

    Maybe you don't know what "ping/latency" is....
    I play with 200 ms and ik what i'm saying, it's barely worth to play as a dps class cuz sometimes we lose so much dps just so we can stay alive.
    It's not viable to delay everythig by your latency in this game cuz of a simple reanson: There's a set amount of time when mechanics happens, whatever u got 200 ms or 30 ms..
    I.e: Let's say one Lachelith mech, it's 1 sec for both 200 ms and 30 ms player. The higher ping player got much less time to react or dps!
    So, the lower ping player can just use one more skill to dps and iframe on the very end of mechanic, whereas the high ping player can only iframe on the same amount of time.
    You should "add" this ping to the monitor/computer input lag (10~30 ms), there's a reason why hardcore fps gamers avoid TV sets or high latency displays for games..

    500-600 ms? That's not even real time anymore, it's unplayable even for a tab target mmo!
    If you think you're right and we can resume everyhing on "get gud", then please, just get a dial-up/satellite/bad 3G modem, delay everything by 0.5~1 secs and do 2M/s on rachelith hm or just clear phase 4 HH w/o messing the raid!

    Let's not even talk about how "high ping" (even 100 ms+!) messes with so many rotations and skills like sorc's flaming barrage, gunner's BF/Blast cancel, Archer's rapid fire, etc..

    this is true,you can play with 200ms or more but you will be dealing like 50% less dps specially if you play as a 2x energetic dps

    Actually, you can send actions (skills in this example), to the host server very accurately even if you're not seeing it. Spacebar masher should have learned that by now, for the others, I can't tell you how many time I casted a spell being on 1sec cd still, how so? cuz desynch/lag/whatever you wanna call it.

    Actually guides and videos help a player learn. It's what separates the skilled players vs good players. Can some people learn without guides and vids? Maybe a low number can learn but majority cannot learn without at least looking at some sort of a guide before going into a new hard mode dungeon. If that person doesn't know anything at first while the rest of the party has some idea, then that person is slowing everyone down. And then wiping and practicing before being perfect; it's normal that way.

    I don't find this true that people copy others to be the best by watching videos. In fact by watching videos, it helped me improve myself as an everyday lancer and being prepared but not never to copy anyone but be myself. Whenever something new comes out, it's a good practice for any class to research ahead.

    The thing about 30 man, it's best to gather people who are fully committed and not just random players. That is the current problem where some people are not even clearing and wiping. Of course there will be wipes at first and that's the part about learning it so later on there will be less wipes and more quicker clears.
  • feazesherofeazeshero ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Fulzoid wrote: »
    Cleared SSNM in Dreadnaught+12 on my ninja with 2 death on first attempt without even watching video/guides. Then I did SSHM with the very same dreadnaught group and we cleared it after 1 wipe on 3rd boss (gunner switched to mystic, else same classes). That being said, I said many times that I retired cuz this game is so easy. I didn't clear 30 man not even attempted it, cuz it's not even intresting to me to get wipes after wipes because of people who can't play. I hit the very same thing in Kuma actually, when 2nd player is at 19k dps after 2 round, you kinda know why you lost.

    That is Tera community, needing proof just because you point out how easy contents give hard time to players, they're like "no, it can't be, you can't be better than I cuz I'm god", sorry to let you know, but the best of Tera community are skilled as average casual players in every other games.

    yet another unskilled troll on the forums who just talks had has no skill...

    Oh yea did i tell you? I already cleared 30 man on fey forest with only 20 people, it was super easy.4 tanks 4 healers and 12 dps. We did each phase in around 7 minutes, dps and healers only had guile +12 while the tanks had imp +15. Such an easy game, idk how people are having difficulty clearing.

    you sound like some kid who quit because the game was too hard and now you're just living in a fantasy world spewing salt on the forums. So you can link me a twitch recording / youtube video or you might want to plug the hole that all your [filtered] is spewing out of

    I know so far MT, AV and TR has cleared 30 man raid but FF cleared also? I don't believe it's possible to clear with only 20 people especially 7 minutes each time with that kind of gear. Vids/screenshots of proof or it didn't happen.

    Edit: Nvm
  • feazesherofeazeshero ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Every new patch, whenever there is new content the same post seems to pop up:
    Tera is an elitist game and whenever I apply to join on my non-BiS+15 characters i get rejected.

    Gear is never a necessity, as many people have stated HH Phase 1 is probably doable with 30 people in full guile. However you also have to realize that your performance in game (ultimately the amount of dps you do, how much you heal, how long you survive, how long you keep aggro) is determined by: your skill as a player, AND the gear you're using.

    What do I mean? I mean that assuming 2 dps of equal skill, the one with better gear does more damage. If the player with +15 ambush does 20% more damage than the one in guile, it also means that the ambush player can be dead for 20% of the fight and still deal the same amount of damage.

    GEAR ACTS AS A BUFFER
    Better gear allows you to sidecrit for as much as someone else's backcrit. Better gear allows you to facetank a swipe from the dragon without endangering the rest of your party because now a healer needs to waste 3 seconds standing still ressing you, which puts them at danger too. Better gear means you'll only have to cast focus heal once on the tank instead of having to also use immersion on the tank which could've been used to heal the dps. Better gear means you can hold block longer to play safer and to observe the boss' mechanics without losing aggro and wiping your party.

    So is it any surprise that people want others to be in gear that allows them to [filtered] up when learning a new dungeon? It's a new dungeon so unless you play in other regions and have already familiarized yourself with all the mechanics, you are going to make mistakes, better gear allows you to make those mistakes without wiping your party/raid. So if you can prove to me that you can kill all 4 of the phase 1 dragons with optimal damage, optimal positioning and no deaths then I won't hesitate to put you on my static, but after 30+ hrs of running Phase 1, both pug and static, not a single guile +12 character has shown me that they can accomplish what was listed.

    To put this into even better perspective, the new raid hasn't even come out for a week yet. Only 1 server has successfully cleared it, over time people will slowly gain experience so they don't need to rely on their gear as much. It's always easier to train 1 member if the other 4 are skilled than training 4 rookie with 1 skilled. When RMH was first released people only accepted +15IMP, now you can get in with +15 starfall or +12 guile, same happened with SSH, and i'm confident it will happen with HH too.

    If you want to be the first to run the hardest dungeons in the game, shouldn't you also be the first to have the best gear in the game?

    All it takes is one or a few runs to impress different people. When people know you, they'll even take your alts in dreadnaught.

    For 30 man raid phase 1 is definitely doable in guile but everyone has to carry their own weight and errors have to be very minimal in order to have a chance. People are wiping at phase 1 for many reasons but I find some reasons could be: The tanks dying too much, dps dying before the shield breaks and not burning the bam enough before switching to the next bam. Now the party I was in, almost everyone is in full ambush gear and I remember like 10-15 people died at once. I think once everyone started to figure things out, the deaths were much more minimal. But it took maybe 6 or 7 wipes before we were able to clear it and that is normal for really any hard mode dungeons at first when it's difficult. Just imagine though a full raid of people in guile having to be perfect just to have a chance but it's doable.

    Speaking of RMHM or even sshm before this patch, I also had the experience of taking one person who is new while the 4 of us in the party are experienced. Definitely easier to train 1 person than 2 or more.

    Getting the best gear, there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has different motivations for it. It's not required but for people who want to push themselves more and wanting to see what their potiential is. Since I play a tank class and like to min-max a bit, that is part of my motivation to go for the best gear. In previous patches, I would do a hybrid setup of previous vm + new vm but this patch is first time I went with a full new vm set because of the vm 8.5 upgrade.
  • I'm going to go ahead and close this thread. The discussion seems to have run it's course and is just filling up with a lot of small arguments and call outs.
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